The following info from a Eurocentric weblog shows the uselessness of arguing over haplotypes and genetics without physical anthropological foundations:
“A back migration from Asia to Africa took place around 15,000 years ago, with a group of R1b1* people moving to Egypt, Sudan and spreading in different directions inside Africa to Rwanda, South Africa, Namibia, Angola, Congo, Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, Cameroon, Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Guinea-Bissau. The hotspot is Cameroon. R1b1* was observed at a frequency of up to 95% in some tribes of northern Cameroon (like the Kirdi), and about 15% nationwide. It is probably where the early R1b people first settled, then spread south and east along the coast.”
The problem a lot of people are unaware that most Cromagnon and paleolithic, mesolithic and neolithic people around the Mediteranean including in North Africa were not biologically or not closely affiliated represented by modern Europeans. 15,000 years ago the majority of people in North africa were Mechtoids and other “Cro-Magnon” type people with craniofacial traits that were strongly tropical. These people had very little direct connection to modern European peoples or those called “Eurasian in the Middle East. in fact they were closer to modern sub-Saharan Africans.
This has been known for many decades by anthropologists and modern physical anthropologists using genetic based traits have basically confirmed the earlier conclusions. Thus, the study done by Brace and several other reputable physical anthropological specialists who wrote and edited the paper proving the unrelatedness of most modern Europeans with ancient pre- Bronze Age Europeans showed very strong tropical and “Negroid” traits well into the neolithic. It also concluded many Bronze Age people were apparently not closely connected genetically to modern Europeans based on 24 well-tested craniofacila traits including the Mahalonobis statistic. “The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.”
However the unrelatedness of ancient stone age Europeans to modern Europeans has long been known thus we hear from the following specialists earlier. Professor Willis Boughton in 1896, The History of Ancient Peoples 334-337: “Archeologists have found remains of three races in Europe. Two of these are generally classed as blacks, may be known as the Constant and the Cro-Magnon Race.”
“The discoveries of abundant prehistoric remains all over Europe particularly France. These with one accord tended to show that European aborigines of the Stone age were not Mongoloid like the Lapps, after all but the exact opposite. In every detail they resembled rather the dolicocecephalic Negoes of Africa.”” William Z. Ripley, Races of Europe p. 436
“The importance of the skeleton of the Cro- Magnon type is that in stature, prognathousm and shape of the orbits they exhibit approximation to the negro type more than any other which have been found in Europe.” P. 96 in Isaac Taylor, The Origin of the Aryans, first published 1889.
And in 2005 the Brace paper asserts – “If this analysis shows nothing else it demonstrates that the oft repeated European feeling that the Cro-Magnons are ‘us’ is more a product of anthropological folklore than the result of the metric data available from the skeletal remains.” see “The Questionable contribution of the Neolithic and Bronze Age to European Craniofacial form”, Loring Brace, Noriko Seguchi, Conrad B. Quintyn, Sherry C. Fox, A. Russell Nelson, Sotiris K. Manolis, by the National Academy of Sciences, which basically shows how weak the physical link is between modern Europeans and most ancient Europeans including pre-Bronze Age Eurasiatic, regardless of what haplotype or other dna traits went where. This is due to the prevalence of African looking people in Europe and Asia until the neolithic. Something that early specialists before pseudoanthropological musings of Coon. (And even he classified the bulk of the small “Mediterranean Neolithic people as noticeably “Negroid” in craniofacial character.)
Brace’s study found that only a couple of populations in neolithic Germany to have some connection to the modern Europeans and Middle Easterners, including the modern Gaunches and Basques, and northward Berber speakers (also mainly mesocranic and brachycephalic peoples) unlike ancient Africans and modern Africans and ancient paleolithic and most neolithic Europeans and Eurasians.
In addition, recent studies have again shown as Lepsius had in the past that ancient Egyptians had essentially tropical traits.
Thus we read in another recent article, “The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations.” (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). found in “Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions”. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.
Finally it should understood that, just because certain haplotypes or other dna traits came to be carried by a variety of modern populations says little about where a modern population or physical type originated. What it does suggest, however, is that many modern Europeans and the affiliated modern Eurasian populations have asorbed previous non-Europoid populations that were present in European, North African and Eurasian regions. The Greeks, Kabyles and other European-like types may be a good example of this.
In this post i meant to say. “This is due to the prevalence of African looking people in Europe and Asia until the neolithic, something that early specialists before pseudoanthropological musings of Coon were aware of.”
It has recently been discovered that the Cro-Magnons were of the IJ Y-DNA Haplogroup:
The groups descending from haplogroup F are found in some 90% of the world’s population, but almost exclusively outside of sub-Saharan Africa. The mutation of IJ corresponds to a wave of migration out of the Middle East or Western Asia some 45 ka that subsequently spread into Europe (Cro-Magnon).
Jack says: “IJ corresponds to a wave of migration out of the Middle East or Western Asia some 45 ka that subsequently spread into Europe (Cro-Magnon).”
Jahdey responds: “Maybe. But the phenotype of the middle easterners was black, Ethiopoid exclusively between 45,000 years ago until 1,000 years ago. Even today, majority population of many middle eastern countries is black, Ethipoid. When you add two and two, it would appear that IJ was an archaic gene of another group of Ethiopoids that moved from Africa into middle east.”
I think Jack needs to take a look at the picture of the reconstructed Cro-Magnon you have on this site Jahdey. For obvious reasons people don’t seem to want to grasp the point that Europeans types spread only relatively recently in large numbers. I would say they become numerically significant in the late Bronze Age. At least that is the time the physical type shows up with their classically mesocranic and brachycephalic cranial forms. in fact Loring Brace says similarly the Europeans of the Bronze Age and modern Europeans were NOT RELATED.
Thus we read in 1990 as said by Krogman decades earlier,””Examination of the skulls which have been found on several sites in Anatolia shows that in the third millennium the population was preponderantly long-headed or dolichocephalic, with only a small admixture of brachycephalic types. In the second millennium the proportion of brachycephalic skulls increases to about 50 percent.”” (6) Gurney, O.R.; The Hittites, Penguin Books, 1990, First Ed. 1952 p. 284
The second millenium B.C. is very late in history to be showing up in significant numbers in the world of civilization especially when you are supposed to be the father of it all. This is just going to take a lot of time to sink in to some peoples’ heads. These later Eurasiatics start showing up in the Mediterranean or North Africa at this time as well although apparently never made it to parts of the southern Levant or Arabia as late as 1,000 years ago as you say Jahdey.
There were two forms of Homo sapiens, both extinct, in Africa about the same time period. Neither have ever been assigned an ethnicity-they are Cro Magnon and Idaltu. Cro Magnon has what would be classified as robust Caucasoid features-the modern peoples closest to what they looked like are the Danish or Finnish. Idaltu has what would be classified as as robust Negroid features-the modern people closest to that type are the Masai of Africa.Modern humans are a subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens to be exact- slightly less robust than the extinct forms of Homo sapiens. The phenotype of ARABS is NOT black, Ethiopoid. Ethiopeians did invade the Arabian Peninsula and then were driven off by the Arabs-so of course there was admixture-J1 originates in the Arabian peninsula as does F with genetic backflow into NorthAfrica.the following is a list of haplogroups and Arabs are in the Caucasoid group.
ETHNIC HAPLOMARKERS
Caucasoid-E (only subclade E1b1b is a Caucasoid marker-all other sublades of E are Negroid haplomarkers), F(Semites),H, I, J(Semites-1 & 2), K, L3(Semites),T, U, V(Semites), W, X, Y
Mongoloid(anthropologists now include American Indians(Red) and Malaysians(brown) ethnicities in this group- C, D, F, G, Q
Negroid- A,B,E(except for subclade E1b1b which is a Caucasoid haplomarker), L1 & L2, M & N-all groups have these, but certain subclades are restricted to Blacks)
M, N – is present in ALL ethnicities, but certain subclades are restricted to only Blacks
P, R, Z – Caucasoid and Mongoloids only, not Blacks
E1a and E2 are found almost exclusively in Africa, and only E1b1b is observed in significant frequencies in Europe and western Asia in addition to Africa. Most SUB-SAHARAN AFRICANS belong to subclades of E OTHER than E1b1b, while MOST NON-AFRICANS who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade. Greeks and Romans have Indo European Aryan White DNA(haploid) markers and the Ancient and Modern Egyptians have Arab Semitic White DNA(haploid) markers- subclade E1b1b. Arabs in North Africa are Semitic White, and, technically, can be called White, not, Black, Africans. Greece and Rome are a part of Europe, so Greeks and Romans would be called Indo European Aryan White. According to Wikipedia, “Most Sub-Saharan Africans belong to subclades of E other than E1b1b, while most non-Africans who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade.” (Citing Fulvio Cruciani et al, Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E1b1b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa, Am. J. Hum. Genet, p. 74)
Slyde whines:
“…Most SUB-SAHARAN AFRICANS belong to subclades of E OTHER than E1b1b, while MOST NON-AFRICANS who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade. Greeks and Romans have Indo European Aryan White DNA(haploid) markers and the Ancient and Modern Egyptians have Arab Semitic White DNA(haploid) markers- subclade E1b1b.”
Jahdey roars:
Clyde, you are such an unschooled idiot! Read the quotation below and the citation:
“The mutations M2/P1/M180, on the one hand, and M35/M215, on the other, further subdivide E3 in two monophyletic haplogroups: E3a and E3b. Both haplogroups are frequent in Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002), although, to date, only E3b has also been observed in Europe (Semino et al. 2000) and western Asia (Underhill et al. 2000; Cinnio?lu et al. 2004). Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by immigrant farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).”
“The three main subclades of haplogroup E3b (E-M78, E-M81, and E-M34) and the paragroup E-M35* are not homogeneously distributed on the African continent: E-M78 has been observed in both northern and eastern Africa, E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa, E-M34 is common only in eastern Africa, and E-M35* is shared by eastern and southern Africans (Cruciani et al. 2002). Given the strong geographic structuring observed for the four subsets of E3b within Africa, it is possible that different E3b lineages also have different frequency profiles in western Eurasia and that the evolutionary events underlying the introduction of E3b chromosomes in this area from Africa were not as simple (Rosser et al. 2000; Richards et al. 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003) as previously proposed (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001)…”
Note: E1b1b is same thing as E-M215 also known as E3.
See: Fulvio Cruciani et al. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May; 74(5): 1014–1022.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181964
Modern Arabs are of course not Ethipic in appearance. Many Arabs of the Arabian peninsula are of course black or Ethiopic in appearnace. If you do not know what the people of the Arabian peninsula look like maybe shouldn’t be discussing them. The skeletal types, neolithic and later culturem literature and rock art of the Arabian peninsula show clearly who the people were and why they called themselves the blacks until the white slave trade became so prevalent throught the Middle East.
Early and most Cro-Magnon’s like the Mechtoids had tropical traits of limbs and facial features any one that proclaims otherwise should at least show the physical anthropological proof of it. There was no direct relationship between those robust African looking population and the archaic, or broader headed or European types present in Europe during the Mesolithic just as Brace has reiterated.
Read it and weep!.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715204741.htm
My name is Billy Gamb, I love the information on R1b1 .. I have a close friend who is R1a the Indo-Eurasian Haplogroup. I belong to mtdna L2a1 and Y-chromosome M2/E3a..
http://billygambelaafroasiaticanthropology.wordpress.com/
all ”E” Y-dna IS african if you take it back far enough, even the E3b found in the mediterranean and in low freq throughout europe.
The ‘R’ Y-dna is only found natively among one small tribal population that going back into history is along a trade route. The remainder of subsuharan africa from the tip of the south african coast to the bottom of the sahara desert is OVERWHELMINGLY ”E” and a minority of ”A”, Y-dna..
this is why the case is more likely of backmigration into africa along the known trade routes producing this small tribal anomoly on one small region with ‘R’- also, note, this ‘R’ is no more closely connnected to the European clades than either are to the pakistani/indian clades or ”R”.. they are not the same clade, although they commonly derive long ago.
The bantu conquest of west africa is known for certain to have displaced and enslaved millions of Khiosan (Hg A)
and could also account for the massive depopulation of the cameroon (Hg R) population at the same time period.. the enslavement of the cameroon indigenous population, as with the Khoisan, ccould also have introduced the negroid phenotype into the cameroon R population.