The Roots of Afro-Europe: Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b1*, Cro-magnons, and Afro-Europeans – Dana Marniche

The following info from a Eurocentric weblog shows the uselessness of arguing over haplotypes and genetics without physical anthropological foundations: 

“A back migration from Asia to Africa took place around 15,000 years ago, with a group of R1b1* people moving to Egypt, Sudan and spreading in different directions inside Africa to Rwanda, South Africa, Namibia, Angola, Congo, Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, Cameroon, Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Guinea-Bissau. The hotspot is Cameroon. R1b1* was observed at a frequency of up to 95% in some tribes of northern Cameroon (like the Kirdi), and about 15% nationwide. It is probably where the early R1b people first settled, then spread south and east along the coast.”

The problem a lot of people are unaware that most Cromagnon and paleolithic, mesolithic and neolithic people around the Mediteranean including in North Africa were not biologically or not closely affiliated represented by modern Europeans.  15,000 years ago the majority of people in North africa were Mechtoids and other “Cro-Magnon” type  people with craniofacial traits that were strongly tropical.  These people had very little direct connection to modern European peoples or those called “Eurasian in the Middle East. in fact they were closer to modern sub-Saharan Africans.

This has been known for many decades by anthropologists and modern physical anthropologists using genetic based traits have basically confirmed the earlier conclusions.  Thus, the study done by Brace and several other reputable physical anthropological specialists who wrote and edited the paper proving the unrelatedness of most modern Europeans with ancient pre- Bronze Age Europeans showed very strong tropical and “Negroid” traits well into the neolithic.  It also concluded many Bronze Age people were apparently not closely connected genetically  to modern Europeans based on 24 well-tested craniofacila traits including the Mahalonobis statistic. “The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.”

However the unrelatedness of ancient stone age Europeans to  modern Europeans has long been known thus we hear from the following specialists earlier. Professor Willis Boughton in 1896, The History of Ancient Peoples 334-337: “Archeologists have found remains of three races in Europe.   Two of these are generally classed as blacks, may be known as the Constant and the Cro-Magnon Race.”

“The discoveries of abundant prehistoric remains all over Europe particularly France. These with one accord tended to show that European aborigines of the Stone age were not Mongoloid like the Lapps, after all but the exact opposite.  In every detail they resembled rather the dolicocecephalic Negoes of Africa.”” William Z. Ripley,  Races of Europe p. 436

“The importance of the skeleton of the Cro- Magnon type is that in stature, prognathousm and shape of the orbits they exhibit approximation to the negro type more than any other which have been found in Europe.” P. 96  in  Isaac Taylor, The Origin of the Aryans, first published 1889.

And in 2005 the Brace paper asserts – “If this analysis shows nothing else it demonstrates that the oft repeated European feeling that the Cro-Magnons are ‘us’ is more a product of anthropological folklore than the result of the metric data available from the skeletal remains.”  see “The Questionable contribution of the Neolithic and Bronze Age to European Craniofacial form”,  Loring Brace, Noriko Seguchi, Conrad B. Quintyn, Sherry C. Fox, A. Russell Nelson, Sotiris K. Manolis, by the National Academy of Sciences, which basically shows how weak the physical link is between modern Europeans and most ancient Europeans including pre-Bronze Age Eurasiatic, regardless of what haplotype or other dna traits went where.  This is due to the prevalence of African looking people in Europe and Asia until the neolithic. Something that early specialists before pseudoanthropological musings of Coon.  (And even he classified the bulk of the small “Mediterranean Neolithic people as noticeably “Negroid” in craniofacial character.)

Brace’s study found that only a couple of populations in neolithic Germany to have some connection to the modern Europeans and Middle Easterners, including the modern Gaunches and Basques, and northward Berber speakers (also mainly mesocranic and brachycephalic peoples) unlike ancient Africans and modern Africans and ancient paleolithic and most neolithic Europeans and Eurasians.

In addition, recent studies have again shown as Lepsius had in the past  that ancient Egyptians had essentially tropical traits.
Thus we read in another recent article, “The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations.” (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). found in “Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions”. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.

Finally it should understood that, just because certain haplotypes or other dna traits came to be carried by a variety of modern populations says little about where a modern population or physical type originated. What it does suggest, however, is that many modern Europeans and the affiliated modern Eurasian populations have asorbed previous non-Europoid populations that were present in European, North African and Eurasian regions.  The Greeks, Kabyles and other European-like types may be a good example of this.

30 thoughts on “The Roots of Afro-Europe: Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b1*, Cro-magnons, and Afro-Europeans – Dana Marniche”

  1. In this post i meant to say. “This is due to the prevalence of African looking people in Europe and Asia until the neolithic, something that early specialists before pseudoanthropological musings of Coon were aware of.”

  2. It has recently been discovered that the Cro-Magnons were of the IJ Y-DNA Haplogroup:
    The groups descending from haplogroup F are found in some 90% of the world’s population, but almost exclusively outside of sub-Saharan Africa. The mutation of IJ corresponds to a wave of migration out of the Middle East or Western Asia some 45 ka that subsequently spread into Europe (Cro-Magnon).

    1. Jack says: “IJ corresponds to a wave of migration out of the Middle East or Western Asia some 45 ka that subsequently spread into Europe (Cro-Magnon).”

      Jahdey responds: “Maybe. But the phenotype of the middle easterners was black, Ethiopoid exclusively between 45,000 years ago until 1,000 years ago. Even today, majority population of many middle eastern countries is black, Ethipoid. When you add two and two, it would appear that IJ was an archaic gene of another group of Ethiopoids that moved from Africa into middle east.”

  3. I think Jack needs to take a look at the picture of the reconstructed Cro-Magnon you have on this site Jahdey. For obvious reasons people don’t seem to want to grasp the point that Europeans types spread only relatively recently in large numbers. I would say they become numerically significant in the late Bronze Age. At least that is the time the physical type shows up with their classically mesocranic and brachycephalic cranial forms. in fact Loring Brace says similarly the Europeans of the Bronze Age and modern Europeans were NOT RELATED.

    Thus we read in 1990 as said by Krogman decades earlier,””Examination of the skulls which have been found on several sites in Anatolia shows that in the third millennium the population was preponderantly long-headed or dolichocephalic, with only a small admixture of brachycephalic types. In the second millennium the proportion of brachycephalic skulls increases to about 50 percent.”” (6) Gurney, O.R.; The Hittites, Penguin Books, 1990, First Ed. 1952 p. 284

    The second millenium B.C. is very late in history to be showing up in significant numbers in the world of civilization especially when you are supposed to be the father of it all. This is just going to take a lot of time to sink in to some peoples’ heads. These later Eurasiatics start showing up in the Mediterranean or North Africa at this time as well although apparently never made it to parts of the southern Levant or Arabia as late as 1,000 years ago as you say Jahdey.

  4. There were two forms of Homo sapiens, both extinct, in Africa about the same time period. Neither have ever been assigned an ethnicity-they are Cro Magnon and Idaltu. Cro Magnon has what would be classified as robust Caucasoid features-the modern peoples closest to what they looked like are the Danish or Finnish. Idaltu has what would be classified as as robust Negroid features-the modern people closest to that type are the Masai of Africa.Modern humans are a subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens to be exact- slightly less robust than the extinct forms of Homo sapiens. The phenotype of ARABS is NOT black, Ethiopoid. Ethiopeians did invade the Arabian Peninsula and then were driven off by the Arabs-so of course there was admixture-J1 originates in the Arabian peninsula as does F with genetic backflow into NorthAfrica.the following is a list of haplogroups and Arabs are in the Caucasoid group.


    Caucasoid-E (only subclade E1b1b is a Caucasoid marker-all other sublades of E are Negroid haplomarkers), F(Semites),H, I, J(Semites-1 & 2), K, L3(Semites),T, U, V(Semites), W, X, Y

    Mongoloid(anthropologists now include American Indians(Red) and Malaysians(brown) ethnicities in this group- C, D, F, G, Q

    Negroid- A,B,E(except for subclade E1b1b which is a Caucasoid haplomarker), L1 & L2, M & N-all groups have these, but certain subclades are restricted to Blacks)

    M, N – is present in ALL ethnicities, but certain subclades are restricted to only Blacks
    P, R, Z – Caucasoid and Mongoloids only, not Blacks

    E1a and E2 are found almost exclusively in Africa, and only E1b1b is observed in significant frequencies in Europe and western Asia in addition to Africa. Most SUB-SAHARAN AFRICANS belong to subclades of E OTHER than E1b1b, while MOST NON-AFRICANS who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade. Greeks and Romans have Indo European Aryan White DNA(haploid) markers and the Ancient and Modern Egyptians have Arab Semitic White DNA(haploid) markers- subclade E1b1b. Arabs in North Africa are Semitic White, and, technically, can be called White, not, Black, Africans. Greece and Rome are a part of Europe, so Greeks and Romans would be called Indo European Aryan White. According to Wikipedia, “Most Sub-Saharan Africans belong to subclades of E other than E1b1b, while most non-Africans who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade.” (Citing Fulvio Cruciani et al, Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E1b1b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa, Am. J. Hum. Genet, p. 74)

    1. Slyde whines:

      “…Most SUB-SAHARAN AFRICANS belong to subclades of E OTHER than E1b1b, while MOST NON-AFRICANS who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade. Greeks and Romans have Indo European Aryan White DNA(haploid) markers and the Ancient and Modern Egyptians have Arab Semitic White DNA(haploid) markers- subclade E1b1b.”

      Jahdey roars:

      Clyde, you are such an unschooled idiot! Read the quotation below and the citation:

      The mutations M2/P1/M180, on the one hand, and M35/M215, on the other, further subdivide E3 in two monophyletic haplogroups: E3a and E3b. Both haplogroups are frequent in Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002), although, to date, only E3b has also been observed in Europe (Semino et al. 2000) and western Asia (Underhill et al. 2000; Cinnio?lu et al. 2004). Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by immigrant farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).”

      The three main subclades of haplogroup E3b (E-M78, E-M81, and E-M34) and the paragroup E-M35* are not homogeneously distributed on the African continent: E-M78 has been observed in both northern and eastern Africa, E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa, E-M34 is common only in eastern Africa, and E-M35* is shared by eastern and southern Africans (Cruciani et al. 2002). Given the strong geographic structuring observed for the four subsets of E3b within Africa, it is possible that different E3b lineages also have different frequency profiles in western Eurasia and that the evolutionary events underlying the introduction of E3b chromosomes in this area from Africa were not as simple (Rosser et al. 2000; Richards et al. 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003) as previously proposed (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001)…”

      Note: E1b1b is same thing as E-M215 also known as E3.

      See: Fulvio Cruciani et al. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May; 74(5): 1014–1022.

    2. Modern Arabs are of course not Ethipic in appearance. Many Arabs of the Arabian peninsula are of course black or Ethiopic in appearnace. If you do not know what the people of the Arabian peninsula look like maybe shouldn’t be discussing them. The skeletal types, neolithic and later culturem literature and rock art of the Arabian peninsula show clearly who the people were and why they called themselves the blacks until the white slave trade became so prevalent throught the Middle East.

      Early and most Cro-Magnon’s like the Mechtoids had tropical traits of limbs and facial features any one that proclaims otherwise should at least show the physical anthropological proof of it. There was no direct relationship between those robust African looking population and the archaic, or broader headed or European types present in Europe during the Mesolithic just as Brace has reiterated.

  5. all ”E” Y-dna IS african if you take it back far enough, even the E3b found in the mediterranean and in low freq throughout europe.

    The ‘R’ Y-dna is only found natively among one small tribal population that going back into history is along a trade route. The remainder of subsuharan africa from the tip of the south african coast to the bottom of the sahara desert is OVERWHELMINGLY ”E” and a minority of ”A”, Y-dna..

    this is why the case is more likely of backmigration into africa along the known trade routes producing this small tribal anomoly on one small region with ‘R’- also, note, this ‘R’ is no more closely connnected to the European clades than either are to the pakistani/indian clades or ”R”.. they are not the same clade, although they commonly derive long ago.

    The bantu conquest of west africa is known for certain to have displaced and enslaved millions of Khiosan (Hg A)
    and could also account for the massive depopulation of the cameroon (Hg R) population at the same time period.. the enslavement of the cameroon indigenous population, as with the Khoisan, ccould also have introduced the negroid phenotype into the cameroon R population.

  6. Actually, Mechtoids were closer to Cro Magnons in Cranio facial features. The “Subtropical” element either came from mixing w/ Negroid N. Africans, or Sub tropical CLIMACTIC forces caused Cro Magnon features to evolve in a more African direction. It’s probably more a product of mixing. It is important to note that there WAS gene flow between Africa & Europe (at that time) that went both directions. Sometime after the last glacial maximum (somewhere between 25,000 and 19,000 years ago) There was a migration of ppls ( of probable Bantu physical type) into Europe. This would have occured after the ice sheets began retreating. From there they would have moved north. This may also account for some African-Saharan genes being found clear up in Russia!

    1. Its obvious many people have some kind of mental block where Cro-Magnon is concerned. They ARE NOT the direct ancestors of modern Europeans. Their ancestors were already in Europe along with Cro-Magnons.

      What does the anthropological evidence mean: “The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.”

      The study also shows that the Mechtoids (the North African variant of the Cro-Magnon) evolved into neolithic black Africans as represented by modern East Africans or peoples of the Horn. There is nothing that unfathamable and obtuse about what was said in the article. “Cro-Magnons are not us.” Means NOT YOU.

      1. Not only is there nothing unfathomable. There is nothing that can be easily denied. Culturally the links between Aurignacian and most other Paleolithic Europeans are with matrifocal black Africans and not Europeans, as witnessed by the mother Goddess figurines.

        1. This isn’t true racially Cro-Magnons would be considered Caucasian. Brace was saying that they were different in other ways like robustity. R1b1 originated from the region of Afghanistan/Pakistan region in those days and then mixed with the blacks that were there. Aurignacian has nothing to do with Africa it is indigenous to West Asia. Any similarities between Aurignacian and any modern culture would be the result of influence by Eurasians over time. There were never any Mother Goddess figurines associated with Africa at all they always show up in Europe first. The Earliest Natufians were not Black Africans. Natufian culture was already long established before the blacks migrated North. If the Blacks originated the Natufian culture than the first farmers in Europe should be predominantly Y-Haplogroup E. But instead Y-Haplogroup G which is indigenous to Anatolia far exceeds any other haplogroup!

  7. Its obvious that we’re all vey closely related and that early Europeans were black. That means nothing except showing that our differences are beautiful and should be preserved.Lave white people alone! No mass immigration or pointless mixing will solve discrimination. We should all look to see what we can offer each other. Peace.

  8. “The following info from a Eurocentric weblog shows the uselessness of arguing over haplotypes and genetics without physical anthropological foundations”
    This is wrong . Y DNA SNPs are providing one scientific information : the male lineages. The anthropological data can provide other informations. In fact, it’s hard to make a good comparison between Y data and anthropological data, so the basis of the article is weak.

  9. The Y-DNA haplogroups I and J in Europe are very closely related and both derived from IJ, the Cro-Magnons. I evolved further in Europe and J followed later, with its own subset of mutations. They both are of the same family and both from the near east. These groups evolved long before there was such a thing called race and ethnicity. Neither are Nordic nor Semetic as we use the terms today. In general, these haplogroups occur in Europe in a nexis from north (I) to south (J), both long-headed in appearance, flanked by others, namely R1b to the west and R1a to the east, both more round-headed in appearance, both of which are cousins to the IJ brothers. “Whiteness” has nothing to do with Y-DNA but rather an appearance manifested by autosomal dna mutations. No one of these groups is more “whiter” than the other. If one is perceived to be “white” and you want a genetic explanation then try studying autosomal dna.

  10. I don’t know what you’re trying to say here, but if my DNA is what National Geographic’s Genographic project says it is, than I am a member of Rb1(R1b1b2). And this is a direct line from father to son back 35,000 years. How can you say Europeans (or European-Americans, in my case) having this blood are not the “real” ancestors?? This is bullshit. We are all African, after all, I don’t care if you’re “Negroe” and I’m not. We are related it’s all just recessive and dominant traits.

  11. Clyde says that Haplogroup E1b1b is Caucasoid, believed by many others.
    It’s widely believed that black African migrants entered Europe around 40,000 years ago. E1b1b is believed to have developed in East Africa around 20,000 years ago. This important group is associated with developing agriculture and the Afroasiatic language family.
    How did they become Caucasian?
    Narrow skulls and gracile bone structure may indicate cooler climates near the Ice Age Mediterranean. E Haplogroups are black African.
    Has a reverse migration from Eurasia into East Africa been documented?

    1. I’m still waiting for someone to show me those gracile skulls that originated in Europe. The so-called gracile features that Europeans love to claim exist on the East coast of Africa and in parts of India. European heads bear the closest approximation to the aboriginal Australian. If Europeans’s brow ridges were any larger they’d be APES.

      Meyers Blitz-Lexikon (Leipzig, 1932) shows “Caucasoid types”. Caucasoids have the second largest brow ridge under Australoids..

      1. After a century of denying what was visible to all but the Euro-racist; come on, the Great Sphinx is caucasian? Africans are now asked to welcome their savage Neanderthal cousin without reservation. I have reservations and have always had: these deleterious X-linked genes that keep surfacing increasingly among Africans in the diaspora are a sign that Eve’s peeps had good reason to banish her children from the modern human gene pool. Autism, Asperger, Muscular Dystrophy, Cystic Fibrosis, ADHD, Schizophrenia; all this to look forward to after having overcome head and pubic lice.

        1. Sphinx looks Caucasian. If it had a flat, negroid nose, the nose would not have fallen off. It’s because it was longer, that it fell off the rest of the statue. Definitely built by a white king, not necessarily by white laborers.

  12. Look at the Y chromosome data study..the? genomes? of modern? europeans are founded on the frame of both? the basque male (“old European” original cromagnon original white man)and the basque female.The basques are the original it makes sense.Ask any honest scientist if u dont believe me…

    1. There is no orignal “Cro-magnon white man”. Early Cro-magnon’s had tropical features adn limb proportions and weren’t white. As Loring Brace said the idea that Cro-magnon’s are us is very much a European folk tale.

      1. Actually the Cromagnons of Europe are now considered to have most likely been light skinned people as far back as 35,000 years ago this is even taught in anthropology classes today.

  13. I forgot to mention people need to get rid of their polygenetic based wishful thinking that says just because blacks were in Africa “whites” predominated in Europe and “yellow” people held Asia. Seriously its getting boring. There is no evidence the ancestors of modern Europeans were dominant over large parts of neolithic or earlier Europe/ From what i can tell they are found in some caves in mesolithic Germany and are markedly different already in that era than the bulk of the mesolithic European and Eurasiatic peoples.

  14. All this takes is a quick google for images of cro magnon skulls. Typically, their eye sockets tend to be VERY rectangular – negro eye sockets tend to be round whilst caucasians are more rectangular. The cro magnon nasal cavity tends to be elongated – in negroes it is round, in caucasians it is more elongated. The cro magnon chin is very prominent – caucasians have a more prominent chin than negroes. A side view of a cro magnon skull will reveal it to have a facial/forehead profile more akin to the caucasian, rathern than the sloping profile of negroes. The cro magnon had a cranial vault of a whopping 1500cc – today’s caucasians are far closer (about 1360cc) to the cro magnon average than today’s negroes (about 1290cc). Nice try guys, but the cro magnon is our grandaddy not yours.

  15. cromagnon man evolved into the basque man

    Late Paleolithic (to 8,000 BC)
    • Homo sapiens sapiens – current type of man
    • Art (decoration of caves, bones and? stones)
    • Evolution towards the Basque Type(the white man) begins
    • Homo sapiens sapiens soon divides into the racial groups which now inhabit the earth (white, yellow, black).? Each group becomes the origin of the races which we now distinguish. One of? them, Cro-Magnon man, evolved indigenously into the Basque group.

    • Cave of Urtiaga (Deba)- final magdalen level (end of the late Palaeolithic age) Cro-Magnon type cranium beginning to evolve into the Basque cranium. Azilian level? (beginning of? Mesolithic age) ;intermediary crania, between Cro-Magnon and Basque. The crania of the Eneolithic age are clearly Basque.You learn from your oldest bro,the younger never learns from the? older..u learned from the oldest “bro”, the basque man..know wat i mean?

    “The History and Geography of Human Genes” (Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi and Alberto? Piazza), divides humanity into four major ethnic regions, African (Khoisan), Caucasoids (Basque), Mongoloids (American Indian) and? Australians (Aborigine) (Time, No. 3, 1995)

    basques r atlanteans,jesus bloodline,we founded rome,great britain etc n schooled the romans

  16. IJ haplogroup is the cro-magnon marker .. R1B is nothing to do with them apart from invading their lands and killing off the men to replace I and J across the European continent .

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