Medieval Europe Before The Advent of The Black Moors of Africa
Before the Advent of the Black Moors of Africa who ruled parts of Spain for 700 years there was Medieval Europe a classic rat hole. Until the Blacks came in from Africa and cleaned it up.
In this installment, we present to our readers an article from Pravda describing all that had been achieved in European history just before the advent of the Black Moors of Africa. The Black Moors of Africa gave the Europeans, African sciences (now falsely termed as western science), African commerce, African architecture, African culture, African governance, African libraries and African hygiene.
Other installment will do a comparison of the state of development attained by the medieval age Black Moors of Africa who built Granada, Cordoba, Toledo, and other cities of Southern Europe.
Don Jaide
………………………………..
The stench of medieval Europe still echoes today
22.01.2008
People normally associate different epochs with different smells. The Middle Ages smell of sewage and decaying bodies. German writer Patrick Suskind, the author of a well-known novel “Perfume: The Story of a Murderer,” wrote in his book that the stench of European cities in the late Middle Ages period was unbearable. His work conveys the terrible smell of human faeces and urine in the streets, decaying wood and rat dung, spoiled coal and animal fat, mouldy dust and chamber pots.
Stench used to be an inseparable part of all human activities, constructive or destructive. The Queen of Spain Isabel of Castle (the end of the 15th century) confessed that she had taken a bath only twice in a lifetime – when born and married. A daughter of one of French kings died of lice. Dysentery and scab caused fatal terminations to Popes Clement V and Clement VII correspondingly. Duke Norfolk neglected bathing for religious reasons. As a result of such disregard numerous abscesses dotted his body.
A billet-doux sent by the inveterate Don Juan Henry of Navarre to his sweetheart Gabrielle d’ Estrées became an anecdote. Its contents conveyed the following meaning: “Do not wash yourself, my sweetheart, I’ll visit you in three weeks”. The king himself took a bath only thrice in a lifetime, twice coercively.
Russian ambassadors at Louis XIV court wrote that His Majesty stunk like a wild animal. Europeans considered Russians perverts because it was a tradition for the latter to take steam baths once a month.
European cities were buried in sewage. Town residents splashed the contents of garbage pails and washtubs out into the street on the heads of carefree passers-by. Stagnated slops made stinking pools; and a great number of town pigs crowned the whole picture. People emptied chamber pots right out of their windows making streets look like cesspools. Bathrooms were the rarest luxury. Fleas, lice and bugs swarmed in rich and poor houses of London and Paris.
Unsanitary conditions, diseases and starvation personify medieval Europe as it was. Even the noble class could not afford to eat their fill. Noble families were happy if at best two or three of ten children survived. Delivery was quite an undertaking for women: a third part of them died in labor. Street illumination also was poor – oil lamps, splinters or wax candles at best. Hunger, smallpox, leprosy and syphilis disfigured people’s faces.
There were not any cleaning agents or the notion of personal hygiene in Europe up to the middle of the 19th century. One Italian nobleman said in his memoirs that in the 16th century it was impossible to walk along the streets that resembled a fetid stream of turbid water. He had to hold a scented handkerchief or a small bouquet to his nose not to vomit. But not only faeces poisoned the air. Butchers slaughtered and disembowel cattle right in the streets. They would scatter guts around and pour blood out onto the pavement.
In late Middle Ages people learned to process wastes and faeces. Urine, for example, was used to tan leather and bleach cloth, animals’ bones – to produce flour. In days of old painters placed barrels for urine near the farms, they used it to knead paints. In Ancient Rome they sold even the urine from latrines to wool dyers and leather tanners. What could not be processed was left in the street.
Rain was the only street cleaner in those times. And still, notwithstanding its sanitary function, rain was considered a providential punishment. Rains washed dirt out of all cracks, and raging sewage streams rushed through the streets. Just like this there appeared a small river Merderon in France (from French “merde” - shit).
If there were stinking funds in the country, in cities people defecated in narrow side streets and yards. Only after the ‘hydraulic revolution’ aqueducts and gutters appeared; they provided houses with water and removed the sewage.
People were not cleaner than the streets where they lived. “Water baths warm the body, but weaken the organism and widen pores. That’s why they can be dangerous and cause different diseases, even death”, a medical treaty of the 16th century runs. Medieval doctors thought that infectious air could penetrate through the cleaned pores. Owing to this cause all social bathhouses were abolished. In 15-16th centuries rich citizens had a bath at least twice a year, in the 17-18th centuries they decidedly stopped to wash themselves. The French king Louis XIV had a bath only twice in his life on doctors’ advice. But the procedure shocked the sovereign so, that he made a vow not to do it anymore.
All hygienic arrangements included only hands and mouth rinsing, but not the whole face. “By no means you should wash your face, - wrote medics in the 16th century, - as it can cause catarrh or weaken the eyesight.” As for women, they had a bath only two or three times a year.
The majority of aristocrats used scented rags to rub the body. It was recommended to moisten armpits and groin with rose water. Men wore small bags with fragrant herbs between the shirt and waistcoat. Women used only fragrant powder.
Medieval ‘neat’ persons often changed their clothes. They considered that it absorbs all dirt and cleans the body. But our ancestors were rather selective on this issue. Clean starched shirt for every day was a privilege for rich people only. That is why white crimped collars and cuffs that were the evidence of wealth and cleanliness of their owners became fashionable. Poor men neither washed nor changed their clothing. Most of them had only one shirt. No wonder – clothes were extremely expensive. The cheapest canvas shirt and one milk cow, for example, had the same price.
Source: Pravda.Ru URL:
http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/103574-stench-0
Translated by Ksenia Sedyakina
Pravda.ru
January 22nd, 2008 at 8:08 pm
give a man too much knowledge, and he uses it to destroy you, and claim that which you brought unto him as his own…
January 24th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
The “Moors” of Andalusian renown are generally
considered to be a mixture of arab overlords, with predominantly-Berber and some “black” (i.e. sub-Saharan African) soldiers.
http://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html
January 24th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
In fact, Arabic scholars were highly critical of both “blacks” and “whites”:
‘In it
he (Sa’id Ibn
Ahmadi, “Cadi” (judge/magistrate) of Islamic Toledo) accounted the inhabitants of
the extreme North and South as
barbarians, describing Europeans
as white and mentally deficient
because of undercooking
by the sun, and Africans as black, stupid,
and violent because of overcooking. In contrast,
Arabs were done just right.’ - Bernard Lewis, The Muslim Discovery of Europe
(New York: W.W. Norton, 1982), 68 and Race and
Slavery in the Middle East: An Historical Inquiry
(Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1990), 36.
January 24th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Sceptic
Why then did Shakespare tell us about Othello, the lordly Black Moor? See Shakespare’s Othello. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othello
You should search out on goggle Rembrandt’s classical workson Moors. That will clarify your confused state of mind. See:
http://www.bureauafrique.nl/images/assets/11685745
http://images.google.ca/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-51,RNWE:en&q=moors+rembrant&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
Beri beri or Berbers as Europeans call it are based in Nigeria, Senegal, Mali, Mauritania, Morrocco, and Libya. They were the original saharan nation…lived in the middle of the saharan heat for 10,000 years. It takes melanin to achieve that feat as I explained to you on another tread. See http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/index.php?s=black+spain
“The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous; the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin… the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores..”
http://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html
http://www.bureauafrique.nl/images/assets/11685745
Jahdey
January 24th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Note: If all “Moors” would be ascribed as “black” (i.e. ’sub-Saharan African), where did the term “black-a-moor” come from?
Continuing from that, why did Queen Elizabeth I make arrangements to deport “negars and blackmoores” from England, after concern at their numbers in the English population?
The Spanish certainly saw their “Moors” as “non-Spaniards”, (i.e. Berbers, Arabs, Blacks etc) - yet the views of a painter calling blacks “Moors” after the Spaniards drove most Spanish Moors’ descendants from Spain classifies as “evidence”?
January 24th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
“Caucasoid mtDNA (maternal) sequences, labeled L3E and U6, were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population.” - Rando et al. (1998) Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of Northwest African Populations Reveals Genetic Exchanges with European, Near-Eastern, and Sub-Saharan populations. Ann Hum Genet; 62:531-550.
“So far, our analyses have allowed a clear dissection of almost all NW African…paternal lineages into several components with distinct historical origins. In this way, the historical origins of the NW African Y-chromosome pool may be summarized as follows: 75% NW African Upper Paleolithic (H35, H36, and H38), 13% Neolithic (H58 and H71), 4% historic European gene flow (group IX, H50, H52), and 8% recent sub-Saharan African (H22 and H28).” - Bosch et al. (2001) High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Variation Shows a Sharp Discontinuity and Limited Gene Flow Between Northwestern Africa and the Iberian Peninsula. Am J Hum Genet; 68:1019-1029.
January 24th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
“Beri beri or Berbers as Europeans call it are based in Nigeria, Senegal, Mali, Mauritania, Morrocco, and Libya. They were the original saharan nation…lived in the middle of the saharan heat for 10,000 years. It takes melanin to achieve that feat as I explained to you on another tread.”
No - unless you a referring to when the “Sahara was green”, it would be nigh-suicidal for “any” racial grouping - caucasoid, negroid or mongoloid - to wander unprotected under the Saharan sun: The Berbers simply adapted, and most evidence shows that they inhabit “above”, not “below”, the Saharan desert.
January 24th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
And in reference to your quotation from the site I offered, it would be better to reveal the “full” story:
‘Old Arab descriptions of “blacks” also reveal that what they meant by “black” is not necessarily what we understand it to mean today. Some medieval Arab writers such as al-Jahiz applied the term “blacks” to practically all peoples darker than the average Arab, and “whites” to peoples lighter than the norm’ - just as northern Europeans considered those darker than themselves “swarthy” (as Benjamin Franklin considered the Swedes, Russians, Germans etc!), so too did the arabs ascribe “white” to persons lighter than themselves and “black” to those darker than themselves.
January 25th, 2008 at 6:57 am
Sceptic
This tread is about the backward Europeans. It was written by a European woman of Russian descent.
If you wish to discuss the Moors or their racial background, I had posted about three threads related to the Moors for you. Go to those sections.
The backward tendencies of Europe as described in the article above is one that few Europeans want to discuss. Because it exposes the lie of white supremacy.
Europe was the most backward continent on Earth until 300 years ago when they took piratical acts to a next level.
Europe was so retrogressive that Black Africans had to come up from Africa to civilize Europeans. And what did we get for that…lies, hatred, murder, slander and sceptic racists arguing about shades of Black.
Get it clear now…Black Africans simply means melaninated Africans since noone is black scientifically speaking. There are shades of brown (which marks the Blacks Africans) and shades of pink (which defines the pale Europeans).
Anytime you speak of dark brown and brown colour think Africa and Africans. We were there to give melanin to all the peopleof the earth.
When you think pale or pinkness, think Europeans.
Swarthy comes from a Germanic root word Schwartz. It means Black in German!!! In the old German forests and right across the entire face of Europe there had lived a Black indigenous population. Until the pales came down from The Pale in 500 A.D. Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Saxons, Angeles, they all arrived western Europe after 350 A.D. Prior to that time it was all Africa and Africans.
One last word on Moors: Here is the image of the Moorish Saint of Corsica. It was originally made by the Spaniards but the Corsicans also adopted it in 1946:
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=moor+flag+corsican&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Jahdey
January 26th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Jahdey:
Your ‘arguments’ on this page consist of:
1. The Moors of Spain were “black”.
2. Europe wasn’t “civilised”
3. The black Moors of Spain civilised Europe.
1. I have already addressed the argument of “The Moors of Spain were black” - and I will also check the other pages relating to the Moors on which you recommended for further opposing argumets.
January 26th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
2. “Civilisation” is a rather elastic term:
FreeOnlineDictionary: “An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.”
Each Native American tribe considered themselves more “civilised” than their surrounding tribes, yet the Europeans considered them irredeemably “uncivilised”. Yes, hygiene was…’primitive’ in Europe and superstition held sway over most of the population, regardless of class - however, this “primitive” culture gave the world such wonders as Michelangelo’s David, Mozart’s Requiem etc. Also, you are using a notoriously unreliable ’source’ - Pravda, which is a ‘fringe’ publication to put it lightly.
January 26th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
3. The ‘blacks’ did not give Europe anything - the Arabs did. All those “African” institutions are merely arabic institutions, some of which came to them by way of the Greeks, surprisingly enough!
Also, the rule of the Moors in Spain was oppressive of the native Spanish population to a horrifying extent - this is similiar to saying that the European colonists “civilised” Africa, regardless of the oppression of the native cultures.
Also, you fail to mention “Byzantium”, one of the most ‘civilised’ places in the world before it was conquered by the Ottomans.
January 26th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
“The backward tendencies of Europe as described in the article above is one that few Europeans want to discuss. Because it exposes the lie of white supremacy.”
I wouldn’t say that, most Medieval history makes special reference to the Europeans ‘hygine’, or lack thereof.
“Europe was the most backward continent on Earth until 300 years ago when they took piratical acts to a next level.”
In comparison to:
North America?
Sub-Saharan Africa?
Australia?
January 26th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
“Europe was so retrogressive that Black Africans had to come up from Africa to civilize Europeans. And what did we get for that…lies, hatred, murder, slander and sceptic racists arguing about shades of Black.”
Please, don’t make me laugh - the Europeans were ‘civilised’ by arabic ideas, mostly developed from Greek/Roman ideas. The only way black Africans found their way to Europe from the Medieval Era onwards was as either arabic, or European, slaves and servants.
January 26th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
No…it means “sub-Saharan” (i.e. found below the Saharan desert) Africans. And please tell the “pink Europeans” that they should not be tanning.
Oh, and there have been NO TRACES of ‘black Africans’ in Europe. And those “barbarian” tribes have nearly always existed in Europe since Romans recorded their existance.
And that “Moorish Saint” is none other than Saint Maurice, who is ‘presumed’ to be a black African.
January 26th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Skeptic
Since you now realize that Moors are Black Africans, argument is done.
It is for you to go read about the impact of Moorish Africa on medieval Europe. I already gave you some links but millions of additional references and links exist a goggle search away.
The Moorish patron saint of Corsica is not Saint Maurice. This Moorish Saint of Corsica comes from the days when Black Africans were Kings and teachers over Europe between 7th century AD and 15 century AD. We lost Cordoba in 1495. The world turned upside down ever since.
Saint Maurice was a Roman era Black Moor who made a great impact on Germania. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Maurice
The Moors of Spain, France, England and Sicily date to the medieval times. They were African muslims. But they were not Arabs. Take a look at the head of the Moorish patron saint of Corsica and Spain. It was originally made by the Spaniards but the Corsicans also adopted it in 1946:
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=moor+flag+corsican&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
January 26th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Oh, that “Patron Saint” of Corsica is Julia, a CARTHAGINIAN NOBLE.
“Some scholars believe she may have lived a century or two later and was murdered by Moorish raiders.”
“The Moor’s head with a white bandeau was adopted by Pasquale Paoli in 1762 as the official emblem of independent Corsica. It was inherited from the kings of Aragon, who were invested with Corsica by the Pope in the Middle Ages.”
January 26th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Just admit it Jahdey:
The “Moors” were largely arab Muslims - not ‘black Muslims’. Claiming their accomplishments in Europe is as farcical as a Serbian claiming that the Ottomon Empire was ‘white’ because they enslaved white people/had white servants/had white footsoldiers.
Also, you are ‘whitewashing’ (excuse the pun) the brutal oppression the Moors enjoyed over the native Catholic Spaniards - claiming that it was the “high point of Europe” is as silly as claiming that European colonisation of Africa was the “high point of Africa” because of all the innovations we brought there.
January 26th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Sceptic
You suffer from the racist affliction which produces a proclivity in some to tend to reduce all evidence of Africa’s historical achievement to some slavery story. I understand your problem which is why I decided to help you out of the pit of ignorance.
Shakespare’s Othello was a Moor. He was black. Rembrandt one of the greatest artist of Europe depicted the Moors as your so-called sub-saharan African. Spanish national flags, Corsican national flags as I pointed out, depict the Moors as subsaharan Africans.
Beside your work of dubious authority written in the 20th century by a revisionist historian you have not cited any other relevant authority as refutation of my claims. You instead make a show of emptiness. Kindly cite a credible and cogent authority to refute one of those sources I just gave you.
Moors were and are not Arabs. Arabs are Arabs and they come in Black and white shades. Whereas the Moors are an ethnicity in Black Africa. See the Corsican flag again. Which is why their civilization in Europe was known as Moorish civilization as opposed to Arabic civilization.
The Moors used Arabic as lingua franca but Arabic is a branch of the AFRO-ASIATIC language phyllum. Spaniards, French and Italians are not Romans even though they speak dialets of Latin. Same applies to the Moors.
The image on the flag is not St Julia. St. Julia is from the 5th century AD. This flag dates from 15 century AD. Shakespare’s Othello dates from the same time. Queen Elizabeth’s the first blackamoors date from then.
Sceptic, it is better you go do some research on Moors. Don’t force me to make you look foolish. By your flip flops, it is clear to me that you have not yet gone through tertiary institutions of learning. It is better you are backed with information before you decide to take on those who know more than you do.
It is up to you to believe or dis-believe the evidence of your own eyes. No racist programming, fantasy or wishes can change facts.
You accuse the Spaniards of lieing about the colour and ethnicity of the Moorish heads on their flags eventhough they lived with Moors for 700 years. You are not as qualified as Shakespare or Rembandt or the Corsicans and the Sicilians, nor the writers of encyclopedia britannica who have all testified that Moors are Blacks from Africa.
You are not aware of the Beri beris of Nigeria, nor of the Touaregs of Niger, Chad and Mauritania, so I do have some sympathy for you. Those are Moorish tribes.
Have you heard of the Lamtunas, the Fulanis, the Bozos, Almohades and Almoravids, Senegalese Moors?
It is obvious that you still have much to learn. Go read, learn something, then come back with your sources and engage me.
Jahdey
January 28th, 2008 at 3:38 am
THERE ARE DIFFERENT SHADES OF BLACK ( SKIN TONE ), SO I DON’T KNOW HOW BLACK YOU SHOULD BE TO BE CONSIDERED BLACK. EVEN IN THE SAME HOUSEHOLD YOU MAY HAVE SOME WHO ARE LIGHTER THAN OTHERS IN COMPLEXION, DOES IT MEAN THEY ARE NO LONGER BLACK BECAUSE THEY ARE LIGHTER THAN THEIR SIBLINGS!? SURELY THE MOORS ARE LIGHT SIN AFRICANS ( SOME OF THEM ARE DARKER THAN MOST OF US AFRICANS ), THAT DOESN’T MEAN THEY ARE NOT BLACK. THE LIGHT SKIN FULANIS OF NIGERIA DON’T SEE THEMSELVES AS WHITE PEOPLE, NEITHER DO THE GREEKS (BEING DARKER THAN NORTHERN EUROPEANS)SEE THEMSELVES AS BLACK PEOPLE! SO THE MOORS ARE AUTHENTICALLY BLACK. PERIOD!
January 28th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
MOOR MMADIKE, the Berbers (of which the Moors were largely comprised of) are, in anthropological terms, “largely caucasoid”.
January 28th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Jahdey, I will gladly admit the Moors were all ‘black Africans’ if you use a “primary source”:
“A primary source is a document, recording or other source of information that was created at roughly the time being studied, by an authoritative source, usually one with direct personal knowledge of the events being described.”
I have given you a website with primary sources that depict the Moors as they were during the Moorish occupation of Spain - you on the other hand have given me heraldry (not good via Moors) and the beliefs of persons 400+ years after the Moors inhabtied occupation of Spain in relation to Moors.
Note: Most historians will ‘always’ choose primary sources over secondary sources, Jahdey.
January 28th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Also, the Fulani (or Fula) appear to have origins in Senegal, and speak the “Fula Language” (a Niger-Congo Language) as opposed to a “Berber Language” (an Afro-Asiatic Language).
January 28th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Now Sceptic, Angelfire website is full of “liberal” racists. It has no authority not to talk of anything primary.
The pictures on that site were drawn by some ignorant monks of Catalan Spain, hundreds of years after the fall of the Moors.Do not be deceived. The same Monks drew the Indians of America as white savages. They were notorious in their inaccuracy and no one in his right mind would rely on them.
Ask the Spaniards who their overlords were. And the Sicilians too. They will tell you.
Caucasiod is a non-scientific term of no fixed meaning. There are even Black caucasiods living in Africa according to the crazy pink men that set up the term like: the Tutsis, the Ethiopians, the Fulanis, even some Igbos like the Aros. You are stuck on anachronistic and discredited concepts.
# Sceptic complains:
Jahdey, I will gladly admit the Moors were all ‘black Africans’ if you use a “primary source”:
# Another Skeptic replied:
The “Moors” of Andalusian renown are generally considered to be a mixture of arab overlords, with predominantly-Berber and some “black” (i.e. sub-Saharan African) soldiers.
Jahdey replies: Now make up your mind boy. Admixure means what to your litle mind? Admixure of who and who? And those Black soldiers were who? Europeans?
# Another Skeptic asks:
If all “Moors” would be ascribed as “black” (i.e. ’sub-Saharan African), where did the term “black-a-moor” come from?
Jahdey: The term Black-a-moor means Black as a Moor.
The term Moor comes from the Latin word Mauro which means Black.
Skeptic continues: …you on the other hand have given me heraldry (not good via Moors)
Jahdey: Heraldry is one of most legitimate sources of European history. Upper class Europeans rely on helradry to trace blood legacy, and royal prerogatives.
Besides a picture is worth one thousand words. Besides, why would your pink Corsicans, and pink Spaniards define their overlords as Black people in their flags?
Sceptic continues: and the beliefs of persons 400+ years after the Moors inhabtied occupation of Spain in relation to Moors.
Jahdey: Again just like you have demonstrated your ignorance by confusing St Maurice with the figure on the flag and then compounded it with St Julia mistake, Rembrandt lived in an Europe teeming with Moorish immigrants. Rembrandt lived in the 16th century, Moors were defeated in the battle of Cordoba at the turn of the 16th century (1495) to be precise. Yet many Moors stilled lived in Europe from that time until now.
Jahdey: the European Romance of El Cid, which describes some other Berber women. It relates an account about a “Black Moorish woman” named Nugaymath Turquia who is said to have led a contingent of 300 Black Moorish “Amazons.” They were members of the Almoravid Dynasties which occupied Spain in 1086AD.
The Berber clans that were most instrumental in the Moorish conquest of Spain (and parts of Portugal) of 711AD were the Nafza, Masmuda, Luwata, Hawwara, Zanata, Sanhadja and Zugwaha. They consisted primarily of Black Africans nations. A Muslim scholar describes the women of the Berber clan of the Sanhadja confederation in the following terms: “Their color is black, though some pale ones can be found among them.”
January 28th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Jahdey I believe any further discussion is pointless - you seem to believe that “you” can define what is, and what isn’t, a “correct” source.
All those pictures were DURING the Moorish occupation of Spain - yes, I prefer the sources of persons DURING that time on what Moors were/were not, over the views of a 16th Century painter.
January 28th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
If I asked the Spaniards/Sicilians who their “overlords” were, I doubt they’d say “black Africans”.
And yes, “Caucasoid” is a ‘valid concept’ - ask any anthropologist, and they will concur that there are indeed “Caucasoid”, “Negroid”, “Mongoloid” etc racial groupings.
I meant “mixture”, as in the army wasn’t entirely arabic, berber or black African.
And are we an etymologist, Jahdey? It’s just, I can’t find any sources corroborating your “history” of the term blackamoor.
“but this adj (Mauros). only appears in late Gk. and may as well be from the people’s name as the reverse”.
January 28th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
“Heraldic charges” can mean ‘anything’ to the families involved - are you saying that a family depicting a lion on their crest are descended from lions, Jahdey? Also, the “Moor” seems to have originated:
The use of the ‘moor’s head’ as a heraldic device dates from the 13th century. The emblem has connections to the Crusades, reflecting associating individual families with victories over the moors.”
“Frederick’s use of black Africans can be explained by his desire to present himself as a ‘world ruler’. Their presence symbolised the extent of his power. Other families may have adopted the moor’s head on their arms to associate themselves with the Hohenstaufan dynasty.”
And Jahdey, you do know what a Moor with a white headband signifies - right? Yes, it implies that the Moor was a PRISONER - why would the Corsicans/Spanish ‘acknowledge the ancient black Moorish kings’ by giving them headbands signifying their capture?
And no Jahdey, you said that the “patron saint of Corsica” was a Moor - I proved that that wasn’t so, as Saint Julia is the Patron Saint of Corsica. Lastly, St Maurice is the main ’source’ of the Moor’s head on European emblems.
“”In the north of the country of Mali, there are Berber tribes who are white and are under [the Sultan of Mali's] dominion …. They are: the Yatansir, the Shagharasan, the Maddusa and the Lamtuna.” - al-’Umari
January 28th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Sceptic postures:
“Heraldic charges” can mean ‘anything’ to the families involved - are you saying that a family depicting a lion on their crest are descended from lions, Jahdey?
Also, the “Moor” seems to have originated:
The use of the ‘moor’s head’ as a heraldic device dates from the 13th century. The emblem has connections to the Crusades, reflecting associating individual families with victories over the moors.”
“Frederick’s use of black Africans can be explained by his desire to present himself as a ‘world ruler’. Their presence symbolised the extent of his power. Other families may have adopted the moor’s head on their arms to associate themselves with the Hohenstaufan dynasty.”
The Moor’s head: http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=moor+flag+corsican&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Your own quotation declares that:
a) Not only are Moors Black Africans;
b) but that the Moorish head on the Spanish and Corsican flags is a Black African Moor.
Case close!
It appears that you are not reading your own lines Sceptic. It appears your own source, your own words even contradict you.
Case done!
January 28th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
I said nothing of the sort:
Yes, the Moor’s Head is a “black African” - however, that does not mean that Moor’s are all “black”.
Consider this Jahdey - the Moor’s Head of Heraldry originated in the Crusades, yet somehow it has been “translated” to the Moors of Spain - please tell me when the Moors were involved in the Crusades, Jahdey.
January 29th, 2008 at 6:59 am
Another Skeptic replied:
Yes, the Moor’s Head is a “black African” ….”.
Case file closed!!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6H9vp_Om7bc
February 10th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
I’ve read your word’s, aswell the replies and i find it very amusing, to say the least…
I AM A MOOR. We don’t accept the term of “Black, Negro, Colored, etc.” to describe our nationality. All of the foementioned terms, where placed upon us. The problem is that certain fraction’s of the world we live in, don’t want the truth to be fully known or even discovered, for that matter. So for the “seudo-scholars” who replied to investigate Jesus mother Mary. that should be a start.
February 24th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Stanely Lane Poole -the story of the moors in spain ,the story of the moors after spain.this is an albion view from 1886.i notice that when people type they are asked to be grammatically correct an if they are not its as if their intelligence is reduced or the truth that they are stating bears less weight.it does not ,this language that most who speak it have no etymological clue on the meanings of the words that they use because it came to them during the process of enslaving them an taking their land soveriegnty birthrights an status.my people are waking up slowly but they are waking up.dont hate ,septic ,the brother jahdey is on the right track.he will soon arrive at his destination.it takes a while to get back to 360 degrees when youve been frozen below zero an ruled by 3degrees.the man dont want no more his-tory lessons to less sun him - not + cause thats all history lessons are.the man just want his cosmology astrology mathematics an divine law back.an unconscious moor is usually one word from being free or on her/his way.i know your a man jahdey ,El Al Ali Bey AN DEY are our names.the skeptic know what black means in law an he is using that in his spell that they cast.taj tarik bey and other moors have free matierial on YOU TUBE.THE NIGGER INDUSTRY IS MY FAVORITE.DVDS ARE AVAILABLE ON ALL OF OUR HISTORY BY SIMPLY PUNCHING THE NAME SAA NETER IN YOUR SEARCH ENGINE.THEIR IS A SECTION JUST FOR MOORS DVDS AS WELL AS ALL OTHER INFORMATION CONCERNING OUR TRUTH.IRISH PEOPLE are moors the whiggamore party stole the white status in 1863 after propogating from 1852 for it.before that they was called the red man the red ruddy.you will learn why we are not black an overstand the sorcery that is being practiced by gentlemen such as the one your debating with.the moors were branded black a moor indian ,negro,colored,back to negro,afro american split with hispanic to black to african american.the word comment or no comment indicates that im talking an this is not a grammer test this is a blog one of the best for information on our story.peace
February 24th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
THE TRICK IS THEY DONT WANT YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE THE WHITE MAN AN THEY REPLACED YOU.ITS A CASTE SYSTEM WE RULED EUROPE WITH.WHITE LIKE THE DOCTOR WEARS WHITE BLACK LIKE THE UNDERTAKER DEAD.HUMAN BEINGS ARE NOT COLORS FROM A CRAYON BOX AN ALL COLORS COME FROM BLACK.FIRST THEIR WAS DARK THEN THERE WAS LIGHT WHICH IS STEADY TODAY WITH THE SUN RISE AN SUN SET
February 24th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
BLACKS LAW DICTIONARY 4TH EDITION,FREE WHITE PERSON DOES NOT MEAN CAUCASION RACE OR ARYAN RACE OR ANY CRAYON BOX RACE ONLY CERTAIN NATIONALITIES.UCC1-103,THIS IS THE LAW FOR HUMAN BEINGS.THE BRANDS APPLIED TAKE THE PEOPLE WHO AGREE TO THEM OUTSIDE OF THE LAW, OUTLAW,OUT OF THE HUMAN RACE AN INTO CREATED CRAYON BOX ARTIFICIAL CORPORATE BONDED BRANDED PERSONS.PLEASE STUDY THE KNOWLEDGE IS YOURS .TAKE IT BACK PEACE IM OUT THIS TIME
February 24th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
True words Ali Bey, true words indeed.
Teach…clarify!
Jahdey
March 26th, 2008 at 6:58 am
Everyone knows niggers invented everything first. Space travel, advanced science, engineering, metallurgy, mathematics, etc… Then they started living in mud huts and eating each other!
March 27th, 2008 at 7:41 am
To Mr. walt235@hotmail.com
You are just another pathetic pink ass cracker right-wing cretin venting its poisoned ignorance and mental inadequacy.
Your problem Mr. Walt235 is that you are oppressed violently by your working class poverty ridden status . Your grand father was a serf (natural slave), your father was working class, and you will ever remain under the radar of economic sufficiency.
In turn, your programmers have set you to hate on Africans to distract you from focussing on the true cause of your weakness, wretchedness, ugliness and flaccidity.
Go hide your head in shame thou ridiculous cretin. Your thoughts are a pollution to humanity.
Jahdey
May 26th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
the caucasion was grafted from the troglydye niger chimpanzee an the north asiatic so called black man.the caucasion truly knows that he was called the nigger first an has reversed his identity with the original man.so you didnt invent anything but you were the niggers then you invented negroes coloreds hispanics latinos indians and blacks an started calling them niggers to make them forget they created you. 235 is the number of internal death when you play the daily numbers. whiggermore whiggers are the original niggers
May 26th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
the caucasion was grafted from the troglydye niger chimpanzee an the north asiatic so called black man.the caucasion truly knows that he was called the nigger first an has reversed his identity with the original man.so you didnt invent anything but you were the niggers then you invented negroes coloreds hispanics latinos indians and blacks an started calling them niggers to make them forget they created you. 235 is the number of internal death when you play the daily numbers. whiggermore whiggers are the original niggers
May 26th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
shave a monkey bald an its pale red an ruddy thats where positive disease blood came from you then you had sex with animals dog catswhatever an came to the western world putting fire in the butts of little boys a girls giving disease to all you raped an touched cause you come from animals thats why you have sex with animals on movies an in the privaxy of your own home because its tradition.we invented the shower an taught you how to take one ,how to shave an groom your hairy silverback ass so it doesnt bother us when you say nigger jusr apply it to the original nigger you an not the strawman you have created with your false sobriquets
May 27th, 2008 at 6:56 am
Brother Terrell
Shukran for sharing this knowledge.
Jahdey
June 3rd, 2008 at 12:12 am
If you Americans really would like to know what moors look like, go to Italy and look at the statues and flags which were created long before these racist arguments existed. They are definitely not white. They very black in color with phenotype found in Africa ranging from very African to Arab looking. Stop trying to justify history with your racist and stupid arguments that only Americans care about. This one of the reasons America is suffering and so hated in the present time. You are hellbent on kidnapping the cultures of other people that have nothing to do with your own. The sardegnian flag has the heads of four black skinned moors with tightly coiled hair and their holy Madonna is also black skinned. What is the big deal if they were black? Does it make you Americans feel inferior? You have your own history to relish in.
As I have said before, they were a mixture of black and Arab invaders from Africa, Mauretania to be exact. In fact, why should there be a discussion, since you currently call blacks niggers and Arabs sand niggers, why should you feel obligated to make them into caucasian when it is convenient. Americans are full of shit.
toscana mori
Quercianella, Italia 57015
June 7th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Jahdey, dude youre mest up. You got to let these schizofrenic, delusional thoughts of afrocentrism go. You cant just go around stealing other peoples history. All respected historians agree that Berbers and Arabs conquered Iberia, thats good enough for. Whats allso good enough for me is the mostly non-black faces in Magreb states. What happened to the ‘Black Moors’? Where they massacred, where they driven out of their lands? According to historical sources, that never has happened. But he you dont care about historical accuracy, or logic for that matter.
Why do modern Berbers have the highest amounts of European Genes of all other African people? Check the link below for some pictures of Algerian Berbers. They in no way seem to have any Black features.
http://imazighen.vze.com/kabyles/algeria.htm
June 9th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Whatever inquires demands
“…What happened to the ‘Black Moors’? Where they massacred, where they driven out of their lands? ..”
Jahdey Speaks
“Your piratical slave=mongering ancestors deported them to Cape Verde, Jamaica, Haiti, Carolina, Florida and Brazil. Inquisition was the process through which the Black Moors were flushed out of Europe.
Go ask the ghost of Shakespare why he believed that Moors were the so-called Blacks of today.”
June 9th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Could you explain why modern Berbers along the North African coasts are the ‘whitest’ of all African people. If according to you the Libyans/Numidians/Berbers were originally Blacks and they were ‘whitewashed’ by invading Arabs, why is it then that modern Berbers have ‘whiter genes’ then Arab North Africans? Shouldnt the source of all this ‘whitewashing’ be whiter then other North African groups?
Im seriously interested in your explenation for that.
Shakespeare was born in 1564, nearly a century after the fall of Grenada, thousands of miles from Spain. According to what we know of his life, he has never been anywhere near that country. He doesnt seem to be the most reliable source on Muslim Spain.
The great Arab theologian Ibn Khaldun in 1377 wrote a famous book called “Book of Evidence, Record of Beginnings and Events from the Days of the Arabs, Persians and Berbers and their Powerful Contemporaries”.
In this book he in great length describes the ruling powers of Moorish dynasties and their ancestries. In it he allso gives a clear picture of the Muslim societies in the Magreb and Spain. The book in no way supports your theory of the Black Moors.
June 9th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
whatever: dont forget about the non-white berbers in morocco!
June 9th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Toscana Mori: you absolutely hit the nail on the head! so many racist white people here in america and the absolute reason why they themselves suffer along with even the Black man!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:48 am
loanlady, youre absolutely right, but the vast majority of Berbers (especially those living along the coasts of Africa) are not Black. Allso why have the ancient Egyptians painted the ancient Libyans (ancestors of modern Berbers) as white. They painted themselves as brown and the Nubians as Black.
If, according to Jahdey, the entire worlds civilization stems from Black Africa, why is it then that Africa below the Ethiopia and the Sahara was not known to mankind. All the ancient world maps draw Africa as going no further then the southern tip of the Sahara. It just doesnt make any sense.
Another point is the lack of any evidence that point to some great ancient civilization in sub-Saharan Africa. If Black Africans were so ingenius to develop such brilliant societies in North Africa/Middle East/Europe, then why is Southern Africa so devoid of any great accomplishments in ancient times. Again, it doesnt make any sense.
At some time in history mankind went from roaming across plains to living a sedetary life style. They built houses and farms. This change took place in modern-day Iraq. Trade went up and people started living in close together. Its called the birth of civilization. This didnt happen in Africa, it happened in West Asia (modern Iraq). From there ‘civilization’ was spread throughout the Middle East region and into Egypt, Anatolia and Greece. Wth Southern Africa being seperated from the ‘civilized world’ by the gigantic, scorching Sahara, this first wave of civilization simply didnt go further then Egypt. Thats how I see it.
You shouldnt have to claim acievements that simply werent Black. There are numerous people/achievement blacks can and should be proud of. Years from now people around the world will speak about the most powerfull country of all time (US), and their culture that was dominated by Black people. School books will mention brilliant artists like Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane and Cliff Richard. How blacks were the first one to perform the classic artforms of Jazz, Blues, Soul, Reggea, Rock and Rap. A hundred years from now people will speak of Miles Davis like they speak of Beethoven. You can look at great Black leaders like Malcolm X, Luther King jr. and Mandela and be proud as hell. I know one thing, the Dutch dont have a man like Malcolm X to call their own.
June 12th, 2008 at 1:06 am
Allso by believing that people stole the Black Moorish and ancient Egyptian achievements from Blacks, you asume that the Semitic Muslims are less hated than Blacks. I mean you guys believe that all these white European scholars hate Blacks so much that they rather take Black history and give them to the Arabs/Berbers. This is of course riduculous since Arabs are the single most hated ethnic group in the entire world. In a time when Arabs (Muslim Semites) are the subject of the entire worlds hatred, nothing would be spared discredit them or the achievements of their ancestors. Just think about it.