Original West Africans Of Ancient Greece!!! The Black (First) Europeans III
Genetic Linkages Between West Africa and Ancient Greece:
HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses.
The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers.
The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.).
2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable.
3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations.
4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases.
5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers.
6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.
Authors:
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain.
Tissue Antigens. 2002 Aug;60(2):111-21.
June 12th, 2006 at 5:28 am
Typical black excitment over this discredited article. Pitiful. See my other arguments here
African Roots of Ireland
Black Like The Ancient Europeans: The Black (First) Europeans
The The Africans Who Discovered Europe — Black (First) Europeans Part II
June 12th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Septic
You really do need an education.
You must be very far behind cutting edge genetic population mapping conducted by your mini-gods of main stream establishment.
See Cavili Sofaza, goggle P. Underhill, also goggle for S.O.Y. Keita just for starters. Perhaps their authority will save you more embarrasment.
I doubt it though. Because some classical literature had once said: “Give not pearls to swines, otherwise they will trample them underfeet.”
Your obstinacy in light of evidence is pitiful. Your whinning is turning to a whimper.
I feel your fear and your angst. But the truth must be spread inspite of people like you.
You are lost in wishful thinking and shallow thoughts. You have lost your way in racialist “Aryan revisionism”.
Yet, Aryanism is a lost cause like your Daddy Hitler. Because, 10,000 years of Black History, could not be wiped away so easily.
Jahdey
June 12th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
From Jahdey to the Septic Troll: Read and comprehend.
Genetic Linkages Demonstrating African/Greece Connections:
Abstract: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQallele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first timedetermined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, par-ticularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-join-ing dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. Thefollowing conclusions have been reached:
1) Macedonians belong to the‘‘older’’ Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), Arab-NorthAfricans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Ar-menians and Iranians,
2) Macedonians are not related with geographicallyclose Greeks, who do not belong to the ‘‘older’’ Mediterranenan substratum,
3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiop-ian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. BothGreeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305,*0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310.Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharangroups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks clusterwith Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms andcorrespondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displace-ment of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.
The highly polymorphic HLA system has been validated as useful fordistinguishing and/or relating populations (and individuals) in manyresearch studies since the first International HLA AnthropologyWorkshop (Evian, 1973) and in all the subsequent seven InternationalWorkshops. HLA gene frequencies correlate with geographically re-lated populations. The existence or absence of gene flow among neighbouring ethnic groups may be assessed with the study of HLAfrequencies and the corresponding genetic distances (1, 2).Ancient Macedonians were among the peoples that lived be-tween northern Greece (Thessaly) and Thrace in the Balkans andwere considered by the classical Greeks as ‘‘non-Greek barbarians’’that could not participate in the Greek Olympic Games (3).
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks (pdf)
Septic troll, any more arguments???
One love to all
Jahdey
June 13th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
“I feel your fear and your angst. But the truth must be spread inspite of people like you.
You are lost in wishful thinking and shallow thoughts.”
Isn’t it interesting how that’s exactly what I would say to describe you. So often we project our own problems onto others. By the way, you’ve never refuted my other comments elsewhere.
I don’t submit to “Aryan revisionism” or “Aryanism”, nor do I admire Hitler, and I don’t need to to disagree with you.
“Septic troll, any more arguments???”
Yes: Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit
“Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.”
“The limitations are made evident by the authors’ extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups.”
“We believe that the paper [the one cited in this essay] should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.”
That from Cavalli-Sforza. Also, this: Racial Reality and Greeks
June 14th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Sceptic
I found this on your referenced link:
“A recent paper has detected clades of haplogroups J and E3b that were likely not part of pre-historic migrations into Europe, but rather spread by later historical movements. Greeks ….. [then there is] the marker J-M267, which may reflect more recent Middle Eastern admixture.”
(Semino et al., Am J Hum Genet, 2004)
Do you understand what haplogroup E3B is? That is a quintessentially African lineage. (Underhill, et al). E3B is found in Tanzania, Kenya, and Mozambique.
Haplogroup J is another ancient African lineage found in Ethiopians, Sudanese, Egyptian, Afro-Arabs of Yemen and some South Africans, especially marker J-M267. (S.O.Y. Keita)
Besides, when you see terms like “Middle Eastern haplogroup” think the Black Arabs. The Sabeans, Habasha, Yemenites, Omanis etc. Old East African population who crossed the Red Sea to the opposite coast. They still live there today, they still come black.
If you are able to find a paper that positively refutes Greek/African connections please post it. Until you can do so, the burden of proof remains on you.
On another note, I have not bothered refuting your foolishness since you have always undermined all your arguments with inconsistent logic and shallow generalization. Your illogical analysis are your greatest undoing. I make an exception this time.
Additionally, perhaps you are the only one who has yet to understand that ancient Egypt was an African civilization. The pale skin Aryans (especially the Nordic albino types) have never and will never attain to the heights of ancient Egypt. Nothing in Euroland in the past or in the future could ever equal Kemit.
Ancient Egyptians were an African people. Dark and lovely like they could ever come. Take a trip to Egypt and look on the monuments and the people with your eyes. That is why ancient Egyptians called their country Kem (The Black Country) and called themselves Kemites (Black people). Nowhere have I ever come across ancient Kemites refering to themselves as pale skin people.
Herodotus, Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, (ancient Greeks) who actually saw the Kemites, spoke with them and slept in their country told us that Kemites were dark, and had curly hair, like the Ethiopians and the Sudanese their neighbour. But yes, I forget, in your twisted thinking all those are “Black white people”.
Anyway, you still have much learning to do. I will not be your teacher. Go read some real books. You spend too much time prowling red neck aryanist websites.
Jahdey
June 14th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
“Haplogroup J is another ancient African lineage found in Ethiopians, Sudanese, Egyptian, Afro-Arabs of Yemen and some South Africans. (S.O.Y. Keita)”
Actually, it’s a Middle Eastern haplogroup.
“Do you understand what haplogroup E3B is? That is a quintessentially African lineage. (Underhill, et al). E3B is found in Tanzania, Kenya, and Mozambique.”
A Northeast African (i.e. Caucasoid) haplogroup. Both spread with the Neolithic expansion of agriculture, neither from black Africa, hardly “quintessential“.
You can also click on the pretty little pictures at the bottom of that frame to see some non-black Northeast Africans. Also, just in case you’ve forgotten, here are some more.
“If you are able to find a paper that positively refutes Greek/African connections please post it. Until you can do so, the burden of proof remains on you.”
Okay. Or - how ’bout you produce some convincing evidence of your claims, since they go against the grain of established knowledge, and since all you have to rely on is a discredited paper.
“I have not bothered refuting your foolishness since you have always undermined all your arguments with inconsistent logic and shallow generalization. Your illogical analysis are your greatest undoing.”
Oh of course. Thanks for clearing that up. Or, could it perhaps be because you *can’t* refute them because they’re *truthful*, and that all you have are nonsensical evaluations like above quoted one?
“perhaps you are the only one who has yet to understand that ancient Egypt was an African civilization.”
“The only one” - trust me, I’m not the only one who disagrees with you. African, yes; black, no, as I’ve already explained
“The pale skin Aryans (especially the Nordic albino types) have never and will never attain to the heights of ancient Egypt. Nothing in Euroland in the past or in the future could ever equal Kemit.”
Yet more obsession with skin tone. As I’ve pointed out before, vilifying the skin color of others reveals your own insecurity about, and perhaps even twisted shame of, your own skin color. As for achievements, the West has already surpassed any previous civilization with the examples I’ve already given; and I’ve already explained to you that the “Nordic albino types” aren’t confined to Northern Europe, or even to Europe at all. Care to elaborate on why you believe they’re so different from other white people? All you have to put your faith in is “Kemet”; and wasn’t it you, by the way, who asked me what non-Southern Europeans have ever done (which question I also answered, without response)? How about asking yourself the same about non-North Africans?
“Ancient Egyptians were an African people.”
Already covered
“Herodotus, Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, (ancient Greeks) who actually saw the Kemites, spoke with them and slept in their country told us that Kemites were dark, and had curly hair, like the Ethiopians and the Sudanese their neighbour.”
Well, Jahdey, I have another link for you (that I may have already posted) that, surely, you’ll just dismiss with absurd rantings because you can’t challenge it intelligently.
“Anyway, you still have much learning to do. I will not be your teacher. Go read some real books. You spend too much time prowling red neck aryanist websites.”
*I* have much learning to do? LOL. Okay. Well, since the definition of “education” has been questioned on this page and has thence remained nebulous here, I’ll venture to assume you mean brainwashing myself with your feel-good literature. And since that’s what I’m taking it to mean, I’ll kindly decline your recommendation that I read some “real” books. As for that racial reality site, I posted it only for the genetic studies.
Anyway, at least this post of yours was more decent than some of your others have been.
June 15th, 2006 at 5:16 am
Sceptic
Either you are one bad liar or one bad functional illiterate. E3B is found in the highest occurence in Africa.
Read:
Product Y - HAPLOGROUP E3b SUBGROUP SNP TEST
This product will be of interest to those who have been tested by our Product 1 or 2 or have a haplotype (e.g., 10 to 43 STR markers) which strongly points to haplogroup E3b, and who wish to have the Y chromosome tested for every marker that is not exceedingly rare or redundant and has been found associated with this haplogroup. The object is to locate the specific E3b subgroup.
Y haplogroup E3b is very diverse and can be found in highest concentrations in East and North Africa and scattered about Western Asia and Europe in various “hotspots”. For example E3b is common (e.g., 30%) in the Balkan countries such as Albania and some locations in for example Spain and Greece, but is frequently unobserved (or only at a few percentage points) in say Britain, Poland, Denmark and Norway. As a general rule its frequency decreases from south to north.
As with haplogroup J, likely some of the E3b found in Britain may have arrived there in Neolithic times with the advent and spread of farming; or may have a more recent history as a result for example of migrations from regions of the Roman Empire after the invasion of England in 43 AD. It is also one of the haplogroups found in relatively high percentages in those with Jewish ancestry.
………
Haplogroup E3b Subgroup SNP Test
More:
The human Y-chromosome haplogroup E is characterized by the mutations SRY4064, M96, and P29, on a background defined by the insertion of an Alu element (YAP+) (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003). Two of the three branches of haplogroup E, the major clades E1 and E2, have been observed almost exclusively on the African continent, where their distribution has been analyzed in detail (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002). The third branch, the clade E3, defined by the mutation P2, is the only one that has also been observed in Europe and in western Asia, where it has generally been found at frequencies <25% (Hammer et al. 2000, 2001; Semino et al. 2000; Scozzari et al. 2001; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004).
On the basis of the previously published phylogeny (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003), the mutations M2/P1/M180, on the one hand, and M35/M215, on the other, further subdivide E3 in two monophyletic haplogroups: E3a and E3b. Both haplogroups are frequent in Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002), although, to date, only E3b has also been observed in Europe (Semino et al. 2000) and western Asia (Underhill et al. 2000; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004). Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by immigrant farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).
Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
June 18th, 2006 at 11:24 am
Well, can we agree that the “Middle East” and “sub-Saharan Africa” are two different regions? If so, then we should also agree that that this study and the findings of the Genographic Project seem to contradict each other. The Genographic project asserts that M35/E3b orignated in the “Middle East” (see the link I provided earlier), whereas this paper explains that the recently “proposed” origin of the haplogroup is “sub-Saharan Africa”. So it’s just your evidence against mine. Besides, this paper doesn’t prove any sub-Saharan migrations into Europe. The only E3b occurences in Europe arrived there either via the Near East or North Africa, not directly from sub-Saharan Africa. All lineages are ultimately African in origin, but that doesn’t make everyone in the world Negroid. Also, note that sub-clade E-M34 was “most likely” introduced to Ethiopia from the Near East during the Neolithic expansion:
“Although the frequency distribution of E-M34 could suggest that eastern Africa was the place in which the haplogroup arose, two observations point to a Near Eastern origin: (1) Within eastern Africa, the haplogroup appears to be restricted to Ethiopia, since it has not been observed in either neighboring Somalia or Kenya (present study) or Sudan (Underhill et al. 2000). By contrast, E-M34 chromosomes have been found in a large majority of the populations from the Near East so far analyzed (Underhill et al. 2000; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004 [in this issue]; present study). (2) E-M34 chromosomes from Ethiopia show lower variances than those from the Near East and appear closely related in the E-M34 network (fig. 2D). If our interpretation is correct, E-M34 chromosomes could have been introduced into Ethiopia from the Near East.”
A back migration, making Horn Africans part Caucasoid. Also, the most prevalent sub-clade in Europe, E-M78a, is Balkan in origin, and no other sub-clade in Europe is directly from south of the Sahara:
“In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78δ chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa (E-M78γ and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78β), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78α). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.”
So E3b is still not “quintessentially Afircan” due its complex distribution and history.
June 20th, 2006 at 3:33 am
Sceptic
Very silly posting. You just keep embarrassing yourself.
According to Sceptic’s analysis: “Well, can we agree that the “Middle East” and “sub-Saharan Africa” are two different regions? If so, then we should also agree that that this study and the findings of the Genographic Project seem to contradict each other.”
According to Spencer Wells in his book the Journey of Man at page 106 (I know you rely on Spencer Well’s authority):
“…the Middle East has always been an extension of north-eastern Africa, to both the grazing animals and the humans that hunted them. This has been the case for millions of years…”
So when next you hear middle east…Sceptic think Africa!
I could cite you 100 more authorities that support that proposition.
Yemen is just across the Red Sea from Ethiopia. The Red Sea has never been a barrier between the two coasts since the coastal African people have long been sea faring (like the Phoenicians).
The Greek and Roman writers (Herodotus, Strabo, Tacitus) acknowledge that there was an Ethiopia to the east (so called Middle East) and Ethiopia to the West. The Ethiopians (Black Skinned Africans) lived on both sides of the coast.
The Yemenites, the Sabeans, the Ethiopian Amhara and Oromos are all one family. They are all black people, geographically, genetically and culturally continguous.
Go and do your research on E3B properly before seeking to engage your intellectual superiors on such matters which are way over your understanding. There is no well written and researched scientific article on E3B haplogroup that would not indicate that: (1.) It has its highest frequency in East Africa; and 2. that it originates from East Africa.
I cited more than three recent scientific papers for you. In return you “cut and pasted” for me some dumbed down slurp from some web-sites designed for popular consumption.
I even highlighted a quotation in the links you spammed which contradicted what you were arguing. Your own authority contradicted your position and still you want to engage me?
I cited Arnaiz’s research for you demonstrating genetic linkages between Africa and Southern Europe and you resorted to the infamous fallacy of poisoning the well. I invited you to cite a scientific article that discredits Arnaiz’s conclusion on merits and substance. You have not been able to do so.
Arnaiz is an authority’s authority, and his works will stand the test of time. He is equally a person of European descent so where would his bias lie?
It is sad you have never heard about this brilliant genetic scientist and scholar. Sad you have not read his works. Sad that you cannot find a scientific paper to contradict him on the substance of his thesis.
I am sad for you that you could be so specious just to defend the racial purity of your great mythical caucasiod pale skin race. No such category exists and all past reference to caucasiods have been discredited. See Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongloid.
Flashcard Data for Modern Human Variation
That demonstrates your limitations. Either you don’t know what you are talking about and are just trying to sound sophisticated or you are just ramping up your nuisance value.
I have advised you to go and study properly before making a mess of yourself on the Net.
Jahdey
June 25th, 2006 at 10:54 am
ok here eritrea has been forgotten. it is ontop of ethiopia. it is eritrea that is opposite yemen (separated by the red sea) NOT ethiopia. eritreans and ethiopians are pretty similar but differ in language. most of the countries on the horn of africa are apparently closer to arabia than the rest of africa.
June 25th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
This is the typical debate on this topic. I do not see Skeptic using racist remarks, but Jahdey cannot refrain from them, so imbued is he with the Eurocentric white supremacist mindset which he pretends to disdain.
How many ways did Jahdey find to call Skeptic “white”? HA HA All meaningless. Science, Archaeology, the EVIDENCE all confirms that all these claims for African origins of nearly every civilization outside of Africa are bogus.
Egypt was black…Greece was not. Nor were the Berbers.
Jahdey is an example of a white racist in blackface: a minstrel-show racist. Such people should learn to examine evidence objectively, rather than engaging in spurious connect-the-dot history to bolster whichever supremacy it is their weak persona requires to attain some self-esteem. This nonsense only serves to make African studies look ridiculous and to further the racism which infests this world.
Cease and desist!
July 24th, 2006 at 7:07 pm
“greeks” are blacks..Madziri is name for “greeks” from Turkie..before 93 years..no Madziri in Aegean Macedonia..other “greeks” are from Africa..visit “Greece” and..you are in “Istabul”
July 24th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
Greek Revolution 1821 - 1829
American Philhellenes and the Greek War for Independence
Photography of Stelkaz
..ancient beauty..like Aleksander III king of Macedonia..Philip II..my ass..
November 18th, 2006 at 7:15 pm
Department of Forensic Genetics, Institute of Forensic Medicine, University of Copenhagen, Denmark. juan.sanchez@forensic.ku.dk
We genotyped 45 biallelic markers and 11 STR systems on the Y chromosome in 201 male Somalis. In addition, 65 sub-Saharan Western Africans, 59 Turks and 64 Iraqis were typed for the biallelic Y chromosome markers. In Somalis, 14 Y chromosome haplogroups were identified including E3b1 (77.6%) and K2 (10.4%). The haplogroup E3b1 with the rare DYS19-11 allele (also called the E3b1 cluster gamma) was found in 75.1% of male Somalis, and 70.6% of Somali Y chromosomes were E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12, DYS437-14, DYS438-11 and DYS393-13. The haplotype diversity of eight Y-STRs (’minimal haplotype’) was 0.9575 compared to an average of 0.9974 and 0.9996 in European and Asian populations. In sub-Saharan Western Africans, only four haplogroups were identified. The West African clade E3a was found in 89.2% of the samples and the haplogroup E3b1 was not observed. In Turks, 12 haplogroups were found including J2*(xJ2f2) (27.1%), R1b3*(xR1b3d, R1b3f) (20.3%), E3b3 and R1a1*(xR1a1b) (both 11.9%). In Iraqis, 12 haplogroups were identified including J2*(xJ2f2) (29.7%) and J*(xJ2) (26.6%). The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population - closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya - with predominant E3b1 cluster gamma lineages that were introduced into the Somali population 4000-5000 years ago, and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa.
Evidence speaks for itself. The oldest underived E3b is found in places like Ethiopia and Somalia.
And the above source clearly shows that Somalis only have 15% eurasian genese. So its safe to say that Europeans are the real mongrels of this planet, and Africans their fathers, along with everybody else.
December 6th, 2006 at 1:19 am
Hello, I have recently received my in-laws results for their Y-DNA. The Uncle that we took the sample from was E3b Haplogroup. I found these articles and info quite interesting. Due to the fact that their family name was changed and they always believed that they were Italian from Naples. Does anyone have any further info that ties in blood type with Haplogroup? I’d be very interested in that. As they are all 0 negative! Also the family sample of E3b haplo has some very different marker results! With an unmatchable DYS19-”9″ Can anyone tell me where they might have come from with this low number! Very interested in any comments!
December 7th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
Researching that I have done for the past three years has really educated me on the past of the great African civilization. We would just waste our time trying to debate with white people who are still trying to hold on to what was taught to them by their ancestors. Don’t waste time with that, keep researching our glorious past. The more you know, the more you’ll be free. Remember, white people, and all other so-called races, are an extension or deviation of the original people of Kemet. Remember, Africa is named after a european; black people never called there land Africa. The truth is slowly being revealed to the world, and it’s God’s way of revealing Him/Herself. The time of hour is at hand, so be patient, and keep spreading the good news to our people.
Albert
December 22nd, 2006 at 1:38 am
Ohh Yeah ,there’s no doubpt that ancient Greeks are African-related.On this web you can see in details what actualy showed the examination from Madrid in 2001.I mean it’s not only this that confirms the Greek-African relation,also we all know from ancient authors(quotes)-who give us many indications about their African origin.What is most fascinating this examination confirmed that Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Greeks aren’t related at all.Because there were DNA TAKEN from Today’s Macedonians(who live in Northern Greece and Republic of Macedonia) and Greeks living in Northern Greece too,also from Greeks living in Southern Greeks.The results showed that Today’s Macedonians belong to the old Mediterranian subtratum(group)related to Basques,Italians,Spanish,Frech, Iraqian,Portugese …and so on,while the Genes in today’s Greeks had shown connection to the Etiopian-Sub Sabsaharan Tribes.It means Today Greeks don’t belong to the oldest Meditterranian group of people,it means they are intruders in Europe.The conclussion is that Today Macedonians(besides they speak separate Macedonian language-non realted to Greek at all) aren’t related genetically with Today’s Greeks who belong to the Sub-Saharan -Ethiopiand tribe.Once again go and check the link.You’ll find interesting things.NOTE THERE ARE DIAGRAMS(DRAWING)WHICH WILL GET EVEN MORE COMPREHENSIVE.THANKS YOU.
January 31st, 2007 at 11:44 pm
This study was dissaproved, it was conducted by scientists from FYROM and we all know the problems between FYROM and Greece, it was a deliberate act against Greeks.
January 31st, 2007 at 11:49 pm
And how can the people of FYROM be the oldest european race when they came into europe in 800-900AD?
February 12th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
i`m white man..
“hellenes” are blacks and arabs tribes..
modern greeks are like Turks..
and modern greeks speak turkish language..
in modern greek language (etymology) 80% of words are “unknovn”…
“greek” language???…
and flag…
like Bavarians..
king oto?..he..he..hi..hi..
why yunanistan..bugaristan?..
but NOT macedonistan..
because greek are Turks..
pan-slavs theory against GENES?..
NO CHANCE..
done with greeks liars..
before 1913 y.NO Romans (today greeks) in Aegean Macedonia….
today..Turks christians..
February 19th, 2007 at 12:28 am
BOB I want to tell you that TODAY’S Macedonians ALWAYS LIVED on the Balkans,while later the so called HELLENS came in Europe from NORTHERN AFRICA..You are wrong the so called Slav(Macedonians)came in the 6A.D. to RECLAIM their LANDS who were COMPELLED TO LEAVE MACEDONIA,DUE TO THE PERSECUSSION OF THE ROMANS IN 168BC and year after.So Now it gets all clear TO YOU.
March 23rd, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Peace,
I think skeptic and all should keep in mind that Egypt later became mixed with caucasian hittites, mulatto Semites, caucasian greeks and others. This contributed to the fact that they got lighter. Their descriptions will differ from earlier to later. I’ve read where Herodotus says that the Egyptians are black LIKE the Ethiopians. There are further diagrams of Ancient Egyptians where they see themselves almost identical to southern Nubians. Now they became more mulato and lighter as they mixed with Romans, greeks, hittites, and then Arabs. Alot of the population was also driven to the south. In northern Egypt and Southern Egpypt you will still see blacks (including mulattoes whose african ancestry is evident). In Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Oman there are still blacks who have always been native.
Now lets not change our perception of black when it comes to ancient peoples or non-American blacks. We all know that you don’t have to be jet black with deep “negroid” features to be black. In American Mulatoes (from long-standing mulatoe families and first generation mulatoes) have always been considered black if their African ancestry could be seen.
So, if there are non-black Egyptians, berbers, etc, it is because the original black populations mixed with the white ones to create the mulatoe phenotypes which range from “caucasiod” to “negroid” and from dark brown to white without always matching brown to negroid and white to caucasiod. There are plenty of brown to jet black berbers as well as the more white mulattoe berbers.
All southern Europeans have high amounts of African blood in them, from mulatoe ancestors. The inquistion did its best to get rid of any obvious indication of African(Muslim or Jewish) ancestry.
The Egpytians started off as black, now only some of them are.
The Arabs began as a black people, now only some of them are.
The Berbers started off as a black people now their are equally what we would consider black, medium mulatoe and dark-skinned white.
Has anyone not looked at the carribean and its history and looked at its people? Any “dark” white people have black in their background. That is all of the Middle East, India, the south meditteranean and north Africa.
In the case of the Americas, Sudan, the coast of West Africa Noth Africa those blacks who are lighter have Caucasion in their background even if it came by way of the majority mulatto Arabs.
Godbless,
Anwar
http://www.quranists.com
March 27th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Yo, bro!!
March 27th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/greeks/history/pictures/alex.jpg
http://www.athena.agrino.org/images/poetry_literature/Alexandros.gif
http://www.oodegr.com/oode/efsevismos/eikones/alexandros1.JPG
Alaxandros o Makedon
ancient greek men
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/ancientgreekmen/
March 27th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
^^
Original Africoid Greeks: Pictures
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/Images/S_Thera7.jpg
http://www.ancientneareast.net/images/greece/Akrotiri_boxers_small.jpg
http://www.visionfilms.net/docimages120×166/Legacy-of-Ancient.jpg
http://www.noteaccess.com/APPROACHES/AGW/955.jpg
http://www.fastcomtec.com/fwww/xray/art_files/thera_3.jpg
http://www.hellenic-art.com/statues/frescof51.jpg
http://faculty.evansville.edu/rl29/art105/img/minos_toreador.jpg
http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/images/mlw_0001_0003_0_img0137.jpg
http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&Civ/slides/03epic/achillesajax.jpg
http://www.chattablogs.com/…/HarrowingHell.jpg
March 29th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
why greeks are ashamed?..
..greek coffee?..
it`s true..
yes..GREEKS are like COFFEE..
in face..
enjoy
June 19th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
cofee olive skin call it what you may…. cool jaydey.. most of the terms used by a particular poster i.e caucas,negro,mongolo (ids),are aga neo supremacists creations,and show the user’s intention of keeping their status quo.Remember hitler?
June 19th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Interesting how you neglected to post the many Minoan Frescoes that depict Minoans as tanned and fair people with caucasian features.
http://www.ou.edu/finearts/art/ahi4913/aegeanslides/084-1.jpg
http://www.therafoundation.org/gallery/22.jpg
http://www.therafoundation.org/gallery/23.jpg
June 21st, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Unfortunately for jaydey, those pictures do not show “Africoid” origins of Greeks but “Caucasoid” and skin tone is not a factor in determining ones race, genetic is, and genetics in ancient Greek skeleton remains show no “Africoid” origins.
July 22nd, 2007 at 6:26 pm
greek DNA science?…
why greeks dont give Vlachs DNA from Macedonia..
but from Trakia?…
why are afraid?…
i know..
several times i`m visit “greece”..
and Istanbul..
no difference between people (faces)..
and..
for greek liars..
http://bulgarsandgreeks.blogspot.com/
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:41 am
HELLO all
In reading all your text here, I find the same fight in all text and blogs dealing with E3b M35 linage, I ask why? So I reflected for a long while. I came to this conclusion, your all prejudice to race! Your all still fighting over what color of skin or how deep a person is from Africa! My gosh get over your hate over who is what. We are all human from the beauty of the blacks to the beauty of the lighter skinned peoples of the world. I find the purpose of this whole gene adventure is to be found in our lineage not to fight over who is darker or who is lighter. Grow up! Learn that we are from the same gene pool and how that gene wishes to express its looks is nature. I find that people expressing pride over other peoples by virtue of there birth, that they had nothing to do about it just by being born sickens me and is a faulty pride that I hope one day be irradiated from the human race. I have learned much by participating in the National Geographic’s project, for both my mother and fathers linage and found we all come from a common African linage. I took pride in this fact that we all had to start somewhere that we are here and that we all share this planet. Stop fighting over the myth of race and start thinking like grown up men.
July 23rd, 2007 at 7:15 am
No one is claiming that humans did not originate from African but the thousands upon thousands of centuries that passed since then evolved human genetics creating subgroups, the tribes who are the ancestors of Europeans, Asians, Native Americans etc, are part of those subgroups. Genetic testing has shown that Greeks, ancient and modern, are genetically Caucasian Europeans, not black Africans. They were and are still closely related to the groups of people who live within the Balkan and Anatolian region, in other words their neighbors not black Africans. Sorry but no matter how ones wants to spin it, genetics do not lie.
July 23rd, 2007 at 7:23 pm
In my genetic testing my fathers side is from the Bulkins and my mothers is from Germany. I understand that as a culture we can pride ourselfs but to me even a millon years may pass that does not change where we come from. The big lesson for me in my genetic study was, we as a human race are all connected. I have read may blogs and found so many are trying to distance themselfs from all our African roots. I am not trying to spin nothing but as you stated “DNA does not lie”. So walking away from my genetic study I have become color blind! I see us as a family that have many differnt ways to cook and dance.
July 24th, 2007 at 6:50 am
Sorry but genetic testing by the worlds lead geneticists has proven a million years not only change who you are genetically but who you are culturally and no amount of political correctness will make what you claim as “true”. This whole “we are all the same” theme people like to spin is for the birds. No we are not all the same, nice ideology but human history has proven there are too many differences between the human race, both genetically and culturally to play this kumbaya game.
July 24th, 2007 at 8:15 am
I see then where your true spirit is then you see the diffrance in us all I see we are all from one place. With your transparent face you now proved my point why all you people aruge over color and race. I see your world is filled with them and us, or if your not one of us your them. I see your filled with hate you dont want to understand you want to see how we are all diffrent. Sorry but your arument is very weak and shows your true color. Good luck to you and your hate what you reap so shall ye sow. Sad very sad. I am glade you spell it out to all who can read what your true agenda is a world filled with hate.
July 24th, 2007 at 8:22 am
Its funny when I read the genetic experts I see how we are all the same not diffrent. Its funny how people can view the same info and come away with such diffrent views. I am blond green eyed and very fair skinned I know that my family has been in the Balkins on my fathers side for thousands of years like 20 thousand but it still does not change the fact WE ALL come from a same place no matter what skin color or culture we happend to be from. The Roots of the three look diffrent from the leaves so get a clue learn to connect the dots. Peace and love to all I hope we can all accept who we are and maybe we will not distroy ourself in the process.
July 24th, 2007 at 8:45 am
Like I said this kumbaya dance people like to play is a nice ideology to fool one’s self with but it is not reality. Human history and genetics has proven what I stated to be true. People change not only genetically but culturally. Those who want to keep on seeing the world through the delusional lenses that you have been that’s your chose but it still doesn’t make it true, historically or culturally.
July 24th, 2007 at 8:54 am
Oh and here is a newsflash; historical, genetic and cultural difference exist between people who are blond, blue eyed and fair skin too. Its not as some falsely believe a “phenomena” that seperates “blacks” and “whites”.
July 24th, 2007 at 9:42 am
May I ask you question? Are you a neo-Nazi ? Or what is your genetic back ground? I mean no offence to you I really wish to understand you why you make these statements? Thank you
July 24th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Alexander
That fool Andrea is a neo-nazi. We love him here cause he is entertaining like some Zoo animal.
J
July 24th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
No I am not a neo-Nazi but you have proven once more how people like you would call call me a “racist and neo-Nazi” because I chose to believe human evolution, history and genetics over the “we are the same” bull crap that you believe. I neither said blacks are inferior to other people nor did I make any claims that any group of people are better then others. But it is a fact that humans are not the same, genetics has proven that, and human history since ancient times has proven men are different from sea to sea and land to land. You come from a region of the world where every one is Caucasian European and yet everyone still is ethnocentric to his or her origins. So this whole ‘we are all the same’ is as I stated for the birds.
And Jahdey, go read some books that are credible and not the bs you have been lately. Afrocentric views are just as dubious as Eurocentric ones and trying to claim EVERY SINGLE civilization since ancient times has is black Africa is not only wrong but ignorant to say the least.
July 24th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
I apologize to you, Alexander, I should have given you a more civilized answer. No I am not a neo-natzi, nor do I believe in one group of people being inferior from others. I do take offense to the Afrocentric and Eurocentric views being thrown around lately. Eurocentric sound like jack asses and Afrocentric like hypocrites repeating old Eurocentric views. As I stated in previous posts yes I agree with the fact that humans originated from Africa but genetic testing has shown each group of people fall under a specific anthropology category based upon their genetic markers. I’m not saying a different race, there is only one race in anthropology and we all fall under the same branch, but trying to claim every single civilization that existed in human kinds history as “African roots” is beyond ridicules it absurd. Humans evolved and take on their own identity by the change of cultures. What I am stating is that yes all humans are from the same race but they have many differences the results of not a different race or that one is superior to the other but the results of migration, climate, foods they ate, Vitmn D., landscapes, genetic markers that mutant over the thousands upon thousands of centuries which produced different genetic markers within not only the different groups of tribes who left Africa but even subgroups. Within different genetic markers scientists can tell the origins of each group of people.
July 24th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Hello
I was not offended Andrea at all, but I accept in kindness. I love the diffrances as you stated from all parts of this Earth. I studied most of them, and like the best they offer. My genetic and cultural back ground is Romanian/Balkin, and my mothers is German. I am first generation US, I was not raised like US I was raised the old cultural way as Euro. I have a problem with US people in this that its not we but I way of thinking, this I even still have a prolems with. May I ask you whats your cultural and genetics. I would like to know?
I do not find a problem with my loving to call all the people on the earth my family I really feel they are. I dont feel seprate from my African brothers as well as my Asian and Euro brothers I ask whats wrong with that? I have been to many exotic and great counties in this world and find all people can smile and eat and cry all in the same way. From your statments I feel you feel detached from the whole and cannot accept someone who may look diffrent then you? Or does it go deeper?
Again I never took offence to your statments I was just trying to understand why you said this in that way.
July 26th, 2007 at 8:09 am
The Arnaiz-Villena controversy
The disputed data continues to be cited all over the Internet, mostly by White Supremacists, Afrocentrists and Macedonian Slav nationalists who have POLITICAL MOTIVATIONS to relate modern or ancient Greeks to black Africans. However, it’s no longer referenced by population geneticists in contemporary research, mainly due to the criticism of Cavalli-Sforza et al.
SUB-SAHARAN DNA ADMIXTURE IN EUROPE
The descendants of the sub-Saharan Africans who first began the Great Diaspora about 70 millennia ago can be distinguished from the sub-Saharan groups who helped to re-colonize Europe after the glaciers melted 16 millennia ago, and from sub-Saharan people who crossed or went around the Mediterranean in Ancient Egyptian or Roman times or thereafter as slaves, soldiers, settlers, or traders.
Although mtDNA and Y-DNA can quantifiably estimate a modern population’s overall admixture, the approach cannot measure an individual’s genealogy. You had about a million ancestors alive in the year 1500, but only two of them carried your mtDNA and Y-DNA. Differences between the patterns of mtDNA and Y-DNA can suggest why populations migrated: military conquest tends to propagate Y lineages but leave mtDNA lineages in place (men conquer, women get raped), mass migrations in search of a new homeland tend to propagate mtDNA and Y lineages equally, and a slave trade tends to propagate mtDNA lineages but leave Y lineages in place (female slaves are encouraged to propagate, males are not).
According to a summary study by Pereira et al. 2005,[3] sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 0.62% in a German-Danish sample, 1% in the British, 3.83% in Iberians (Portuguese and Spanish), 2.38% in Albanians, 2.86% in Sardinians and 0.94% in Sicilians.
Another study by Gonzalez et al. 2003[4] found L haplogroups at rates of 0.1% in Scotland, 0.4% in England, 0.7% in North Germany, 1.4% in France, 2.9% in Galicia, 2.2% in Northern Portugal, 4.3% in Central Portugal, and 8.6% in Southern Portugal (Alentejo and Algarve)(note that these figures do not count the L3 lineage, which may be of ancient introduction and so remains ambiguous). For comparison, sub-Saharan mtDNA runs 21.8% in North Africa.
Sub-Saharan African Y-chromosomes are much less common in Europe, for the reasons discussed above. However, Haplogroups E(xE3b) and Haplogroup A spread to Europe due to migrations from Northeast Africa, rather than the slave trade. The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%). By contrast, North Africans have about 5% paternal black admixture.
http://www.answers.com/topic/sub-saharan-dna-admixture-in-europe
August 22nd, 2007 at 3:44 pm
I think it is obvious that Southern Europeans and Middle Easterners have African admixture and a denial of this to me is only an attempt to hold on the the Caucasian supremacist ideas of the past that assume Caucasians as a pure race that claimed all of the great civilizations of the world and how blacks (who were now a second class group all aover the world) had not contributed anything to the world.
To even admit admixture is to admit to the inferiority of Caucasians or minimize their greatness in the world to such people. Or at the very least call their grandfathers and greatgrandfathers liars; which they were. As I stated before that mixture can occur in different degrees. A mixture of 25 percent Africoid with Caucasiod will look different than one of 5 percent, or 50 percent, 70 percent or 90 percent. And the genetics will be different as well.
Check out the original black ancestors of
Middle Eastern Populations:
http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter47/text47.htm/sweet4.html
Also check out the specifics of when Negroids and Caucasiods mix in different degrees:
http://interracialvoice.com
http://www.backintyme.com/essay040608.htm
Southern Europeans are an admixture of Negroid and Caucasiods. They are obviously not a 60-90 percent Africoid mixture but the results of heavy mixture can be still seen in certain areas.
By reading the above links everyone will understand why Afro-Americans might call some of these people really black. However, there is no doubt even from ancient greek records that Blacks settled in southern Europe and mixed into the population creating a darker skinned population with curlier hair than what they were before; like their northern pinkish, light and straight haired brothers to the north.
Godbless
August 25th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Africa is mother to whola worl’ thank you
October 5th, 2007 at 6:35 am
‘The primary defect of such studies is that the authors relied on a single genetic marker, the HLA-DRB1 gene, to determine the genetic closeness of a large number of ethnic groups from Africa, the Near East, and the Mediterranean. Commenting on the work of this research group, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza-probably the world’s leading expert on studies of this sort-and his colleagues stated, “Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.”37 Greeks clustered with other European populations on genetic maps, far from the aggregation of North African and sub-Saharan groups.’
- The Gene Wars: Diana Muir Appelbaum ; Paul S. Appelbaum
October 5th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
I find all the postulation of mass-interbreeding ridiculous. Human beings are, by nature, xenophobic. It is only in an over-populated world rife with “political correctness” that you find any notable evidence of interbreeding among persons of different cultural background. To put it in laymen’s terms, ancient “blacks” and “whites” likely would have been frightened by one another by appearance alone, and probably would have been distrustful and suspicious of one another. Only 500 years ago Brits and Scots hated one another passionately, and these are white people with virtually identicle physical characteristics and language…and we’re supposed to believe fair-skinned Greeks and black Africans who not only looked different but came from different cultures with different languages and different religions got along so harmoniously that they interbred to such an extreme? You’ve got to be kidding me. If you want to leave white northern Europeans such as the Brits and Scots out of the argument, fine—look no further than the Hutus and Tutsis who fought to wipe each other off the face of the earth…and these were African “brothers”.
October 16th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
This research was funded by Zionist George Soros (Hungary) in order to add some scientific basis to his anti-hellenic propaganda, but failed dramatically. That’s why this “study” was never accepted by Nature and Lancet, both journals simply characterising it as ridiculous claims lacking scientific integrity. He only used something like 2 genetic markers which is completely unacceptable. On the contrary, a study conducted by Prof. Triantafyllides (Aristotle University) in collaboration with various universities in Europe and Turkey proved that ancient Greek mitochondrial DNA from skeleton found at archaeological sites matched modern Greek DNA at a degree of 99%. So…a message to Mr Soros, or György Schwartz if you prefer his jewish name, is simply a devoted zionist and he is obsessed with anti-hellenic propaganda. But bear in mind that no matter how much money you offer to scientists to fabricate “studies”, the truth will never be obscured. And never forget Mr Scwartz, that when the Hellenes reached the Zenith in every single science and art, your people were living in darkness, somewhere in the steppes of Mongolia or in the sub-saharan deserts. LUX ET VERITAS INVICTUS
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:37 pm
so what if ancient greek and modern greeks are connected to etheopians? the two cultures are from a history of 5000 years plus. The others who are claiming macedonians? the modern day people who think they are macedonians are only RUSSIANS! basically a SLAVIC PEOPLE! so of course they do not have any dna similar to greeks, the so called macedonians of the ‘republic of macedonia’ are of SLAVIC decent, and this ‘macedonian’ language is derrived of serbian, bulgarian and is basically a DIALECT. and why the 80% is turkish??? UMMM why can I as a modern greek read and understand 60% of the ancient greek language? why can i read in the same letters? I can post pictures of modern day bulgarians and russians and “macedonians” and say,,look, they look the same. If they say i have a DNA match with the Etheopians i am PROUD since both these cultures PRE date any barbarian SLAVI whannabee macedonians. the ancient macedonians were of hellenic decent. the dorian people! the modern day so called, are of SLAVIC origin. even the name ALEXANDER is greek, no alexandrovski,,when i ask a person from this fake country ‘macedonia’ what the name ALEXANDER MEANS? they dont udnerstand, greek language has MEANING..what does ALEXANADER mean in “macedonian” they reply…alexande. WRONG IGNORANT IDIOTS ALEX=protector in ancient greek. ANDER=man alexander was a protector of man, just like ALEXIPTO meaning ALEX=protector IPTO=FLYING..thats the name greece gives to parachuters, it protects a man when flying…if they say i am etheopian/ greek THANK YOU GOD BECAUSE WE ARE BLESSED WITH 5000 YEARS PLUS HISTORY!!! when slavic people realize that this “macedonia” country is NOTHING to do with the ancient people of macedonia, they will grow up. Talking to them is like talking to a wall though. the athenians? spartans? thracians? who were they then? Seperate people NO they were all of greek decent, who came from thhose areas. Just like in countries who have different cities, we like to identify more of which city we came from. but hell, TITO and the communist party did a very good brainwashing job. and NO WAY will the so called “study” from people who are from “republic of macedonia” they are not biased at all right? MORONS WAKE THE HELL UP!
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Wake up fellow greeks, you should be proud that we mixed with the best and most sophisticated cutltures of this planet, the egyptians and EHTEopi (etheopians). To any modern day person who comes from the newly established “macedonia” which is STOLEN. the original pre 1991 A.D!! 1991 NOW 1991,,,is VARARSKA a BULGARIAN word, sorry slavic people, the faster you realize you are of slavic decent, the better for all of us.
some greek people will think that its a shame that our ancestors mixed with others, but fact remains that cleopatra? was half greek, our culture and people only chose the best people to establish relations with. they did not establish with BARBARIANS. only GREEKS,,IE GREEK THINKING PEOPLE. when greeks in ancient greece would say “pasi mi ellin kai varvaros” means if you are not greek you are a barbarian. they were not only refering to culture, but to thinking. EDUCATION was the greek way, you were GREEK thinker. so yes if you are not greek you are barbarian. etheopians and egyptians and greeks pre date any russian-bulgarian race in the area.
Now go praise TITO and the communist party of Yugoslavia and make him your alexander, YOUR protector do NOT confuse your slavic heritage with my HELLENIC!!!
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:58 pm
either way, your government of FYROM is all talk, if your people want greece so bad, come take it! when you say go back? YOU go back, YOU go back to bulgaria and serbia. do the area a favour and wake up and realize YOU ARE SLAVIC NOTHING will change this no matter even if this “dna” test was done. your language can be understood by bulgarians, and serbs. VARDARASKAN republic, or better yet the BANOVA rebublic. oh for sure georgovski, and lukovsi ovski,,yes im sure alexander and PHILLIP were of bulgarian decent. wake up moron and learn the truth. Phillip phil=friend
ippos=horse, what does phillip mean in your modern language? NOTHING. it means we THINK we are macedonians, not even close, good try though.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Sam, ancient and modern Greeks are not “mixed” with Etheopians, sorry to break the news to you but Greeks have as much connection to Etheopians as they do with Slavic people zero to none although being Caucasian they closer related to Slavic people then they are to Africans.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2004/09/study-clarification-ii.html
The study you are relying on has been DEBUNKED.
Furthermore, East Africans where e3b1 originated were the proto eurasians who migrated out of africa and peopled asia and europe…Somalis, Ethiopians etc are more closely related to eurasians than they are to other africans. And e3b1 M78-alpha originated in europe and is the most common clade in europe.
>>http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n7/full/5201390a.html
Also check out these for more interesting info…
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2004/09/racial-affinities-of-prehistoric-east.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2007/03/x-chromosome-haplotype-of-recent-origin.html
February 18th, 2008 at 11:12 am
this does not make us any less of what we as a nation are (hellenic) I love saying that i am hellenic, that my ancestors had connections with the world, the best civilizations interacted with us, everyone wanted to think ‘greek’ to speak greek was education. if you did a dna sample of me, you might not find that i am “100%” greek. even if i did find this out, i know where my country is, i know what culture and people i love which is mine the Hellenic!
February 18th, 2008 at 11:36 am
The Spanish study has been proven by many unbiased scientists who study genetic to be false. Every single study done by legit scientist on this subject matter very clearly show that Greeks are not related to Ethiopians at all. Greeks both ancient and modern cluster with other white European people not Africans. Which is why all their statues and even today Greeks depict themselves as caucasian Europeans and not black Africans.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Dave and The Jimmy
Your responses demonstrate that you guys are barely literate.
Arnaiz’s study has been validated several times over contrary to the deliberate misinformation and lies peddled by hate motivated racist sponsored Racial Reality and Dieneke’s web site.
You have been duped by bad men! Misled by very bad liars!
Go figure:
http://onedroprule.org/about1335.html
Jahdey
February 19th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Jahdey, it goes to without reason that you would believe the misinformation that you find in any dubious on line sites and then try to perpetrate a myth that has been proven to be nothing but fallacies by many unbiased sources who work in the field of genetics. Arnaiz’s study has been discredited by legit scientists all over the world time and again. That piece of misinformation that you posted is nothing but lies based on once again Arnaiz’s study. First off that is based on the dubious research work of Arnaiz’s study as they used the same SINGLE genetic marker HLA-DRB1 that Arnaiz-Villena used to come to the same fallacy of a conclusion and as it was pointed out by geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, who have argued successfully that the scientific limitations of using a SINGLE genetic marker, HLA-DRB1 methodology, that the Tunesians and Arnaiz used and I quote “Even a cursory look at the papers diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA-DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker particularly one likely to have undergone selection for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.” End quote. Also there is no historic or archeological evidence of any supposed displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopic people, during the Pharaonic period in the Greek region as the dubious papers claim. So stating it as a supposed ‘fact’ when in reality it is nothing but fallacies with no evidence to back up their theories, questions the neutral point that certain individuals have on this issue. As it is correctly stated by unbiased sources who have conducted many test on the subject matter using not only the same SINGLE genetic marker but multiple-marker analysis, they have yet to ever duplicated Arnaiz-Villena’s and the Tunisian research which raises questions about the HLA-DRB1 methodology results. For example, Ayub 2003 used 182 loci (as opposed to Villena’s and the Tunisians ones) to group several world populations based on genetic distances. Their results reveal Greeks’ both ancient and modern distance far from Africans, and have closeness to other CACAUSIAN Europeans. If you want to find men who have been misled and duped everyone, just look in your mirror.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Dave
The wise say thet ignorance is a killer. HLA-DRB1 or any HLA for that matter is a gene-based protein that can be used to deduce population movement.
Arnzia is a master molecular geneticist of the highest ranking and an authority in genetical analysis. His works stand the test of time.
Arnzia’s genetical study of the Greek genes is still valid and has been corroborated by the identification of other genetic connections.
From a molecular genetic perspective, Y Haplogroups E3B, DE, A, PN2, K2, have been identified in Greeks. These haplogroups are related directly to African Y haplogroups. E3B is from East Africa, DE* is suspected to arise from Nigeria, K2 is East African and can be found all along the coast of East Africa.
In addition, clinical analysis have also confirmed the presence of the following African specific genes in modern Greeks: Hemoglobin Haplotype 19, Beta Thalassemia genes, Alpha Thalassemia genes.
Nordic Europeans like yourself do not present these genes as frequently as they are encountered in the Greek Islands and mainland.
You must rid your mind of your foolish and baseless aversion for simple everyday truth.
Go and read this article here for better elucidation:
http://onedroprule.org/about1335.html
Jahdey
February 19th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Jahdey, ignorance seems to be the only thing you are familiar with given your statements on this subject matter. You are also wrong in regards to what molecular genetic Y Haplogroups are found in Greeks. For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated:
Haplogroup DE is found in very small % in male populations of Nigeria which proves to be that of a much LATER MUTATION introduced INTO that African regions’ population not from as you falsely state. The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D represents a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia.
As far as E3B goes, this Hg can be found through out most of Europe and it is best that one states clearly which sub-group of the E3B (E-M78a - which is not found in black africans but it is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan areas not into it) is found in Caucasian Europeans like the Greeks. BTW, E-M78a that Greeks and other Europeans share chromosomes belong to cluster α, denoting gene flow from mainland Europe. The alpha cluster is a mutation that arose in the Balkan peninsula of Europe from an earlier marker with a Near Eastern origin, according to Cruciani et al. 2004 :
“Although E-M78β and E-M78γ show only modest levels of gene flow (from northern Africa to Europe and from eastern to northern Africa, respectively), the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78α within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78a, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East. These data are hard to reconcile with the hypothesis of a uniform spread of a single Near Eastern gene pool into southeastern Europe”. - Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May; 74(5): 1014–1022. Published online 2004 March 24.
“Outside of East Africa, its two most prevalent clades are E-M81 (referred to as the “Berber marker”), which reaches frequencies of up to 80% in North Africa, and E-M78α, which has its highest frequencies in southeastern Europe (up to 30%) but is found throughout the continent, marking a recent expansion from the Balkan Peninsula.” -
The East African connection is as distant as that of E-M81. And indeed, E-M78α that Europeans belong to is not found at all in the Horn of Africa.
As it was stated before using a SINGLE genetic marker, in this case the DRB1, as Arnaiz & the Tunisians did in basically the same study is unreliable and dubious. Also Arnazia research was funded by such biased mongrels as Soros and the nation of FYROMia, hardly credible or unbiased by anyone’s standards. Also that Tunisian fallacy that you posted did not analyze any Greek genetic material, nor did any unbiased laboratory contribute to their research. Their results were taken straight from those of Arnaiz-Villena and thus they repeated the same false conclusions that Aranzia concluded. In other words, they just used Arnazia’s dubious research work; they did not contribute nor verify anything new to the said study. Arnzia’s genetical study of the Greek genes is not valid at all and has been disproved by credible geneticists from around the world.
All haplogroups are related too and through evolution different Hg are created. It took 10,000 years for E3b to split off from e3a. Similar to the creation of a new species –with the exception that humans are the same species and haven’t diverged to the point that we can’t interbreed and produce viable offspring. The first humans started out as one interbreeding population(with the same features, genotype, etc.), then there became a barrier to gene flow (East Africans vs. Sub-Saharan Africans), this barrier caused differientation because of different selective pressures in phenotype and genotype (East Africans i.e. “elongated” features associated with caucasoids, but retaining pigmented (melanin, a natural sunblock) skin because they live in Africa. When the proto-Eurasians left East Africa, some went to Europe others to Asia. They continued to differentiate and evolve to the environments where they settled. In Europe, this differentiation wasn’t as much because the first Paleolithic Europeans couldn’t go very far into Europe since it was covered with ice(read about Last Glacial Maximum, not adapted for that environment) during the last Ice Age, this caused them to be restricted to refugia of Southern Europe in Iberia, Italy, Greece, Anatolia, etc. and only expanded to the rest of Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum –which is why Europeans like English, Greeks, Italians, Serbs, Albanians, etc. are very closely genetically related; migration to other regions was not possible and they’ve been living together for a long time; they have only in relatively recent in human history been a separate populations. To try and claim southern Europeans , i.e Greeks, Italians, Spanish, French, etc. as “Africans” NOW because e3b came out of Africa, is a slippery slope to genetic evolution and goes against all scientific logic. Everybody came out of Africa. There are significant and distinct stages in phenotype and genotype that lead to the different founding populations of the world since people left Africa. Ancient and modern Greeks are genetically further apart from black Africans as most other Europeans are.
Afrocentric like yourself do not present any of the genes found in either ancient or modern Greeks. I suggest stop trying to turn the whole world history and civilizations into something that its not, i.e. African black.
February 19th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Finally the mere fact that you are trying to attribute such a heterogeneity disease as sickle cell as “ones place of ancestral origins” is astonishing. Sickle cell is contributed to malaria not some phantom African ancestry link as you so falsely stated. Misinformed statements like that reminds me of how not so long ago some would wrongly claim people who had sarcoidosis were of “African” origins at one time when in reality sarcoidosis occurs throughout the world in all races just as blood disorders. FWIIW: Sarcoidosis is most prevalent in Northern European countries. Also please learn the difference between blood disorders. Generally thalassemias are prevalent in populations that evolved in humid climates where malaria was endemic and it affects all races. Thalassemias are particularly associated with people of Mediterranean origin, Middle Easterners and Asians. A very low prevalence of Thalassemias has been reported from people of African origins (0.9%) and that is with those in northern Africa having the highest prevalence. Thalassemia was first discovered in people living around the Mediterranean Sea, they have persisted in such populations and geographical regions because having a copy of either gene protects against malaria.
“OVER THE GENERATIONS, THE SICKLE CELL TRAIT HAS THEREFORE REACHED HIGH FREQUENCIES IN MALARIOUS AREAS. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY.”
Malarious areas, the origins of sickel cell, are the result of war, famine, etc. The highest contribution of sickel cell is found in NORTHERN GREECE, and the countries that surround that region(Albania, Bulgaria, North West Turkey & FYRoM) because of the wars that ravaged that reason since the early 1900s until the end of the Greek civil war in the 1950s. Sickel cell is virtually not found in Southern Greeks.
“The prominent American geneticist James V. Neel was at first perplexed by the fact that beta thalassemia occurs with such a high frequency since the homozygous form of the condition, thalassemia major, is very serious and generally leads to premature death. He initially suspected a high rate of mutation. Eventually, however, Neel realized that the heterozygous form of beta thalassemia, as well as the sickle-cell disease that also consumed his early studies, provided individuals with resistance to malaria, thus making its preponderance in the human population understandable. Neel’s reasoning also helps explain why prevalence of beta thalassemia is greatest in people of Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, and south Asian heritage, since these parts of the world were historically beset with malaria.” - HUMAN PATHOLOGY
Beta & Alpha Thalassemia genes: not a genetic “African” link as some falsely claim: “The reason that the gene for beta thalassemia is found, for example, among people of Italian and Greek origin is that parts of Italy and Greece were once full of malaria. The presence of thalassemia minor (like sickle cell trait in Africa) afforded protection against malaria, and therefore, this gene thrived.” - Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine, McGraw-Hill, edited by Eugene Braunwald, et. al., 2001
“The high prevalence of thalassemias in malaria-infested regions led Haldane (1949) to propose that hetrozygotes for these lethal diseases have a selective advantage (Clegg and Weatherall 1999). [beta]-thalassemia, resulting from deficient production of the [beta]-globin chain. To date, over 180 different mutations leading to [beta]-thalassemia have been characterized around the world. The mutations show a characteristic GEOGRAPHIC distribution: for example, in the Mediterranean region, over 50 [beta]-thalassemia mutations have been characterized, among which two are clearly preponderant. IVS-I-110 (G[arrow right]A) is observed at high frequencies in the eastern part of the Mediterranean, whereas the mutation at codon 39 (C[arrow right]T) is very frequent in western Mediterranean countries. In Lebanon, IVS-I-110 represents 40% of thalassemia mutations, while stop codon 39 (Cd39) is quite rare (0.8%) and has been identified in only a few individuals so far (Table 1).” - Human Biology, Dec 2002 by Zahed, Laila, Demont, Jocelyne, Bouhass, Rachid, Trabuchet, Guy, Et al
“Population Genetics of the Turkish People. World data indicate that in regions where malaria and beta-thalassemia are less common a variety of beta-thalassemia mutations is found, whereas in regions with long histories of exposure to malaria only a small number of alleles account for most of the beta-thalassemia genes (Huisman et al. 1997). The geographical distribution of beta-thalassemia mutations in different regions of Turkey reflects a decreasing gradient of mutation numbers when moving from East to West Anatolia (Tadmouri et al. 1998a) (Figure 1). East Anatolia is a rugged region not conducive to the proper development of the malarial parasite. In contrast, the landscape of Thrace and West Anatolia is simpler and more suitable for the development and transmission of malaria. Interestingly, this mutation/malaria gradient can also be mirrored by the results of surveys conducted in Turkey between 1980 and 1995 that noted a regional beta-thalassemia trait frequency gradient increasing from East (3.4%) to West Anatolia and Thrace (11%).” - (Kocak et al. 1995; Aksoy et al. 1980; Aksoy et al. 1985; Kurkqiioglu et al. 1986; Bircan et al. 1993).
February 19th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Devile
Spamming will not help you out. If you do not realize that Sickle cell is a genetically borne condition and that the haplotypes of the genes identify their geographic origin then you are not qualified to discuss with your betters. You are novice embarrasing yourself and seeking attention.
Anything genetic is blood borne. HBS haplogroup 19 found in Greeks is from Africa. Do you want citations? Real Greeks will never deny that. Some turkmen, or some serbs or some wannabe Northwestern Euro like you can come posture but it is all empty.
I doubt that you understand the implications of your posts but thanks for helping me make my case. Do you not see for yourself how many times Africa is invoked in those research? Can you read at all?
When you start reading more widely and applying interpretative faculties like humans should then you will figure out the teachings which escape you presently.
Africans lived and ruled in Greece. Athens was founded by the Egyptian King Sensworst. Egyptians and Sudanese colonized Greek until the rise of the Persians. We left genes therein.
Black Africans not only colonized and ruled the Greeks, we taught the Greeks the entirety of all they knew. Because until the Greeks entered Egypt following their conquest of Persia, Greece was a backwater section of the world.
The entire Hellenic culture is Egyptian culture plagiarized by the Greeks!
Jahdey
February 19th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
What lies you keep posting, Jahdey. Its very comical that there are people like you out there who believe the garbage ideology you keep yapping about. Real Greeks never claimed being Africans, in fact real Greeks both in ancient and modern times very clearly state they are of European Caucasian origins both in their writings, statues and artifacts. Only Afrocentric who are envious of Greek civilization try to turn Greeks into something that they are not. Black Africans didn’t teach anything to Greeks nor did black Africans ever colonize Greece as you so falsely like to claim given no historical records or evidence has ever been discovered of this except in the wishful minds of Afrocentric. There is no black African genetic link found between you black Africans and white Greeks either in modern times or ancient. Stop living in a delusional bubble of misconceptions and lies. HBS haplogroup 19 is not found in any Greeks, in fact Greeks who carry the thalassaemia don’t carry any of the genetic Haplogroups found in black Africans, which blows your false theory of some phantom “black genetic African” origins of people with thalassaemia to bits. Its pretty comical hearing you try to turn a whole population that not once showed any physical or genetic signs of being black Africans, in fact if we study both ancient and modern Greeks they very clearly show the physical types of White Caucasian not black Africans, are trying to turn them into ‘black’. So what happened to your phantom ‘black Greeks’? Why to ancient Greeks call black Africans “Ethiopians” = Greek for ‘burned faces’ but themselves “European Hellenes” = Caucasians. Nope the Greeks never called themselves as ‘“Ethiopians” =burned or black’ like they did with black Africans based on physical looks. What happened? Did they get rid off all the ‘black Greeks’? LOL!! I’ve been to Greece, all the blacks that I have seen in that country I can count on one hand and most of those are of foreign extraction. What a bunch of crock.
February 20th, 2008 at 4:09 am
Good job Dave! Good job, pin that fool in a corner and make sure he never speaks again. The guy also tried making false accusations of Arabs being originally black, Celts being originall black, Romans having blackhood, etc. Its very stupid, and in fact he even offered me a link to a black-myth theory related to the Chinese after I joked about it. It turns out my joke was true, that there are in fact a bunch of afrocentrics who think theyve influenced the Chinese dynasties. Its pathetic, really pathetic.
February 20th, 2008 at 5:00 am
Devile Dave replied:
Stop living in a delusional bubble of misconceptions and lies. HBS haplogroup 19 is not found in any Greeks,
Scientisits Answer with citations:
It has been conclusively demonstrated that HbS in Greece is mostly haplotype #19 (the one that originated in Benin, Nigeria West Africa). See, Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P.; The origin of the sickle mutation in Greece; evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Unit for Prenatal Diagnosis, Laikon Hospital, Athens, Greece.
Jahdey responds: Devile, can you cite one genetic paper that disproves the above citations? If you cannot then you have been thrashed like the pink thrash you are, and will always be.
Jahdey
February 20th, 2008 at 5:04 am
Muha-madder whines: he even offered me a link to a black-myth theory related to the Chinese after I joked about it. It turns out my joke was true
Jahdey responds: We don’t joke on Rastalivewire Muha-madder Islamo-Facist. This is real history which your white caucasian masters themselves agree with.
Go figure. But keep reading, soon your ancient Jecanite jealousy of Black Arabs will finally explode into fatal apoplexy.
Jahdey
February 20th, 2008 at 7:21 am
Mohammad, people like Jahdey want to turn every single civilization both ancient and modern into some “African black” myth for some reason. I guess stealing other peoples identity and history gives them some kind of ‘belonging’, who knows. Its quite pathetic if you ask me. They only like to spread lies and misinformation to further their own agendas. They give no historical or scientific evidence to back up their baseless ideologies and what they do provide is useless distorted views. Case in point is Jahdey trying to claim that HBs haplogroup #19 is found in Greece because of his mythical “Greeks are of black African origins” fallacy. What he doesn’t point out or maybe he doesn’t know is the HBs haplogroup #19 is found in less then 1% of Greeks and the blood groups of Greeks who have the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait in Greece and most other Mediterranean regions have virtually no Haplogroups that are ‘a typical’ with that of black African Hg markers. Sickle cell anemia is not a black disease, nor did it originate in West Africa. The gene responsible for sickle cell provides protection against malaria, so it’s present wherever we find malaria—Mediterranean countries, Southern Asia, Latin America, West Africa, and the Middle East. We only think of it as a black disease because the slaves who worked the cotton fields of America came from West Africa. If they’d come from Yemen or Japan, then we’d have seen it as a Yemeni or Japanese disease. Sickle cell is the result of malaria, not a genetic racial link to Africa as some falsely believe. Malaria has been around longer than humans have and has always acted on human populations. Therefore, since our beginning, malaria has been ’selecting for’ the sickle cell gene, reproduce and pass on the sickle cell gene to sickle cell carriers. This explains why, despite our racial assumptions about sickle cell, the disease is for example rare in South Africa but prevalent in the Mediterranean, Southern Asia, Latin America and the Middle East.. Sickle cell does not follow some phantom ancient ‘genetic black African’ origin. Sickle cell follows MALARIA and at one point those areas mentioned were hot beds of sub tropical malaria infested regions. In areas that are now or once were hot and humid – ideal breeding grounds for malaria carrying mosquitoes), sickle cell is prevalent. As for that study conducted by Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P, he neglects to mention and leaves out the fact that they state very clearly and I quote: “Comparison of the above results with similar surveys in other parts of the world and consideration of various historical events suggest that the beta S mutation was introduced into Greece OVER THE LAST FEW CENTURIES by the Saracen raids and/or by settlements of North African slaves brought in by the Arabs, Franks, Venetians, or Ottoman Turks, who have occupied the country over the last few centuries.” - PMID: 1687685 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]. They actually debunks his claim that “Greeks were/are originally blacks” theory given this states clearly the Hemoglobin Haplotype 19 virus is a recent introduction into the country not ancient. “Black African Arabs, Celts, Romans and Chinese”?!?!?! OMG, just when I think I’ve heard all the craziness there is to hear. LoL! Anyone with an education knows that not one of those group of people are of African black origins. How sad that such people distort the truth and try to steal other peoples identity and history.
February 20th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Feb 19 6:33 pm Dave crows:
For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated:
Feb 19th 6:45 pm Dave continues:
Finally the mere fact that you are trying to attribute such a heterogeneity disease as sickle cell as “ones place of ancestral origins” is astonishing. Sickle cell is contributed to malaria not some phantom African ancestry link as you so falsely stated.
Dave continues on Feb 20th 7:45 am:
…..What he doesn’t point out or maybe he doesn’t know is the HBs haplogroup #19 is found in less then 1% of Greeks and the blood groups of Greeks who have the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait in Greece and most other Mediterranean regions have virtually no Haplogroups that are ‘a typical’ with that of black African Hg markers. Sickle cell anemia is not a black disease, nor did it originate in West Africa.
Dave continues Feb 20th 7:45 am:
…historical events suggest that the beta S mutation was introduced into Greece OVER THE LAST FEW CENTURIES by t