Black African Origins Of The Ancient Greeks Parts 1 and 2
By: Dr. Anu Mauro
It was common knowledge in ancient times that the Greeks were a spin-off of ancient and most revered Ethiopians. The Greeks themselves recorded their much vaunted relationship with the ancient Ethiopians heros in their holy books which narrate accounts of mythological Ethiopian derived heros such as
Hercules, Persus, Athene, Cassopia, Andromeda etc.
Below are some relevant myths (edited) with ‘exploratory’ notes.
ONE
MYTH NO. 8 –THE GREEK MYTHS: VOLUME 1
THE BIRTH OF ATHENE
According to the Pelasgians, the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Tritonis in Libya, where she was found and nurtured by the three nymphs of Libya, who dress in goat-skins. As a girl she killed her play-mate, Pallas, by accident, while they were engaged in friendly combat with spear and shield and, in token of grief, set Pallas’s name before her own. (hence the name PALLAS ATHENE) — Pg. 44
NOTE ON TEXT — By Robert Graves
1. Plato identified Athene, patroness of Athens, with the Libyan god-dess Neith, .. the aegis…. a magical goat-skin bag containing a serpent and protected by a Gorgon mask, was Athene’s long before Zeus claimed to be her father. Goat-skin aprons were the habitual costume of Libyan girls, and Pallas merely means ‘maiden’, or ‘youth’. Herodotus writes (iv. 189):
‘Athene’s garments and aegis were borrowed by the Greeks from the Libyan women, who are dressed in exactly the same way, except that their leather garments are fringed with thongs, not serpents.’ Ethiopian girls still wear this costume, which is sometimes ornamented with cowries, a yonic symbol.
– Robert Graves The Greek Myths: Published by Penguin Books
2…….Herodotus indicates that the loud cries of triumph, olulu, ololu, uttered in honour of Athene were of Libyan origin. . — Robert Graves: The Greek Myths.
NOTE by Anu Mauro
3. This noise producing activity in our time is now actually called
‘ullulation.’ It is the yodel like celebratory cry quite common all
across south Saharan Africa among contemporary African female populations.
Also use of this cry is still retained in the African descended cultures in the Levant (Palestine Syria Egypt etc. ) –Anu Mauro.
NOTE ON TEXT — By Robert Graves
4. Pottery finds suggest a Libyan immigration into Crete as early as 4000 B.C. ; and a large number of goddess-worshipping Libyan refugees from the Western Delta seem to have arrived there when Upper and Lower Egypt were forcibly united under the First Dynasty about the year 3000 B.C. The First Minoan Age began soon afterwards, and Cretan culture spread to Thrace and
Early Helladic Greece. —- Robert Graves The Greek Myths: 1
=================================
PART TWO
But then who were the Libyans and how are they also connected to Perseus and Andromeda and Ethiopians? …especially bearing in mind that Chemmis, located on the Nile was the name given to ancient Egypt and also translates as black or charred and that the entire continent of Africa west of Egypt
was know as Lybia in ancient times. The two word answer is ‘origins’ and ‘ancestry.’
GREEK MYTH 60 –THE GREEK MYTHS: VOLUME 1
BELUS AND THE DANAAIDS
a. KING BELUS, who ruled at Chemmis in the Thebaid, was the son of Libya by Poseidon, and twin-brother of Agenor. His wife Anchinoe daughter of Nilus, bore him the twins Aegyptus and Danaus, and a third son third son, Cepheus.
Aegyptus was given Arabia as his kingdom; but also subdued the country of the Melampodes, (blackfeet) and named it Egypt after himself.
b. Fifty sons were born to him of various mothers: Libyans, Arabians, Phoenicians, and the like. Danaus, (who was) sent to rule Libya, had fifty daughters called the Danaids, also born of various mothers: Naiads, Hamadryads. Egyptian princesses of Elephantis and Memphis, Ethiopians, and the like.
c. On Belus’s death, the twins quarrelled over their inheritance, and as a conciliatory gesture Aegyptus proposed a mass-marriage between the fifty princes and the fifty princesses. Danaus, suspecting a plot would not consent and when an oracle confirmed his fears that Aegyptus had it in his mind to kill all the Danaids, prepared to flee from Libya.
d. With Athene’s assistance, he built a ship for himself and his daughters - the first two-prowed vessel that ever took to sea - and they sailed towards Greece together, by way of Rhodes.
i. Aegyptus now sent his sons to Argos, forbidding them to return until they had punished Danaus and his whole family. On their arrival, they begged Danaus to reverse his former decision and let them marry his daughters - intending, however, to murder them on the wedding night. When he still refused, they laid siege to Argos.
j. When the siege was lifted a mass-marriage was arranged, and Danaus paired off the couples: his choice being made in some cases because the bride and bridegroom had mothers of equal rank, or because their names were similar - thus Cleite, Sthenele, and Chrysippe married Cleitus, Sthenelus, and Chrysippus
k. During the wedding-feast Danaus secretly doled out sharp pins which his daughters were to conceal in their hair; and at midnight each stabbed her husband through the heart. There was only one survivor; on Artemis’s advice, Hypermnestra saved the life of Lynceus, because he had spared her maidenhead; and helped him in his flight to the city of Lyncea, sixty furlongs away.
1. The murdered men’s heads were buried at Lema, and their bodies given full funeral honours below the walls of Argos; ….Athene and Hermes purified the Danaids in the Lemaean Lake with Zeus’s permission. Lynceus later killed Danaus, and reigned in his stead.
Meanwhile, Aegyptus had come to Greece, but when he learned lphis sons’ fate, fled to Aroe, where he died, and was buried at Patrae in a sanctuary of Serapis
NOTE ON TEXT — By Robert Graves
l. This myth records the early arrival in Greece of Helladic colonists (from Palestine, by way of Rhodes, and their introduction of agriculture into the Peloponnese. It is claimed that they included emigrants from Lybia and Ethiopia, which seems probable. — Robert Graves The Greek Myths: 1
NOTE ON TEXT — by Anu Mauro
This myth also clearly suggests that the children of Dana-us i.e. the Danaids were of African or Ethiopic origin on both their maternal and paternal sides…note their mothers place origins, as well as the paternal connection with Aegyptus, Cepheus and Belus. –Anu Mauro.
NOTE ON TEXT — by James Brunson
” Throughout the Greek legends, an Africoid or dark-skinned people are associated with Danaus and the Danaids. (The poet) Aeschylus’s, “Suppliant Maidens”, describes the Danides as “Black and smitten by the “sun”. (In the poem) when the Danaids claim an ethnic kinship to Epaphos, son of Zeus, the Argive king Pelops, rebukes them:
Nay, strangers, what ye tell is past belief
For me to hear, that ye from Argos spring
For ye to Libyan women are most like,
And no wise to our native maidens here.””
—- James Brunson : The African Presence in the Ancient Mediterranean: Isles and Mainland Greece Pg. 48 African Presence in Early Europe– Edited by Ivan Van Sertima
NOTE ON TEXT — by Anu Mauro
So this places Ethiopics not only in the early migrant populations that settled in Greece but the Danaid link can also be used to connect Perseus himself to dark skinned Ethiopic elements not to mention Andromeda and her parents . This can be gleaned from the next installment of Greek myth (Part 3) wherein the great-grand father of Perseus, his grandfather as well as his mother are shown to have had Danaaid (hence African) connections.
– Anu Mauro
99 Responses “Black African Origin Of The Ancient Greeks (Parts 1 and 2) - Dr. Anu Mauro”
I think this is soo amazing! I wish that schools and colleges would focus on the African origins of things instead of just brushing it under the carpet like we never did anything for history. I’m tired of studying lies. Keep up the good work!
-TK
March 17th, 2007 at 6:10 pm. Permalink.
This is very cool. Am glad that the work of Graves has survived and become prominent too, and todays professors should really answer to why his work was not emphasized.
March 20th, 2007 at 4:33 pm. Permalink.
It is suprising that there are no connections made between ancient European civilizations and African civilizations even though the evidence is there. It again shows the dominant Western historical lense in which we view history.
April 6th, 2007 at 9:32 am. Permalink.
I found these two stories particularly interesting since I don’t know much about European and African history. It is interesting how many of the common names you hear in greek myths came about. It amazes me that the daughters would actually murder their husband, granted they were not married by choice.
April 9th, 2007 at 2:17 pm. Permalink.
It’s interesting to read about the different myths and the reasoning behind them
April 9th, 2007 at 4:50 pm. Permalink.
it is instresting to learn about how africa and eurpean history do have things in common, especily since they realy don’t want you to know this kind of thing. they just want you to view african’s as a backward country and how uncivilied they are. they don’t want you to think that they have some thing in common and could be view as haveing the same past.
April 9th, 2007 at 5:58 pm. Permalink.
It’s surprising to discover such ties in the two civilizations. I think this is just another example of how much history is biased.
April 9th, 2007 at 6:35 pm. Permalink.
I didn’t know this and I bet a lot of other people didn’t either. I really think more African history needs to be taught in schools since Greek mythology definitely is. It would be interesting to find other similarities between the two cultures.
April 9th, 2007 at 7:54 pm. Permalink.
I personally do not know much about Greek mythology or the stories of how the names of the ancient heros came about but reading this article amazes me. It is really bothersome how students are only taught minimal information on topics. No one would ever teach the connections between African history and European history. No one would ever want to accept the similarities within the two, therefore it is interesting to read this article and gain this knowledge. It’s good to see Africans getting acknowledged for their role in history.
April 9th, 2007 at 9:07 pm. Permalink.
Wow I think this is really interesting! I am not too familiar with Greek mythology and I had no idea that two countries had any connection to each other. I think this was very informative and good to know.
April 9th, 2007 at 11:05 pm. Permalink.
This article is definitely for revealing the fact that even as far back as ancient history goes, there is an African foundation. This article proves to defend some of the controversy that is evident in the book Black Athena. I really feel that this is a very significant matter, simply because we are taught at and early age about the earliest form of civilization and how it resides in Greece, but we are oblivious to the fact that there is African influence in that civilization.
April 9th, 2007 at 11:41 pm. Permalink.
I never thought about the connection between African and European culture. whats amazing is that I’ve heard of a story like this from my grandmother but i could barely remember. Not because I’m African but I love the fact that we passed down history by words of mouth. I found this article very informative in a sense that it makes you understand a culture other than yours.
April 10th, 2007 at 6:39 am. Permalink.
No genetic definition of race. Race is a social construction that was made up to keep white supremacy in power. Being of a region is genetic; race identifies your ethnic background built to bring down people of “color”. Jefferson raping slaves and having mulatoo children is seen as a satire perspective towards Europe perspective, the fact that History is seen as a Eurocentric ideology which ignores other peoples history, or leaves out historical knowledge that compels information.
April 10th, 2007 at 7:18 am. Permalink.
Written history, why it important to show that is African had libraries? This shows that “people” stole ideas, shows that Africans are smart. The article makes me ponder on how history was copied, stolen. Revised and authoritized trying to make “others” (Africans) inferior. Re-written history exists, which is a big fat lie.
April 10th, 2007 at 7:19 am. Permalink.
The connection between historical fact and myth is very intriguing. This brings up the idea of collective consciousness and suggests African participation in cultural history previously exclusive to Europeans.
April 10th, 2007 at 7:21 am. Permalink.
Wow! I didnt really know that there was no connection bet. African and European history. I also feel that there should be a greater emphasize on African history and its importance.
April 11th, 2007 at 8:03 am. Permalink.
I think its interesting. I feel that its one of those things if you’re never informed about something how would you know? I feel that Greek mythology can be confusing but this is very interesting. I would never learn this in High School.
April 11th, 2007 at 10:20 pm. Permalink.
Careful kids- This website is NOT a credible or academic source BY ANY MEANS.
That genetic test linking Greeks to Africans was completly written off by proper scholars in the USA such as Stanford on grounds of having ‘no scholarly merit’ and also unable to explain a lot of results. That ‘connection’ written about in the experiment ignores other results that came up that
made no sense.
“HLA genes are not used as a valid measure to determine ancestry since HLA genes, which control immune responses and are subject to environmental selection. This means they’re not reliable in determining ancestral affinity, as using them thus can find bonds of kinship between Greeks and Japanese, as well as between Nordics in Iceland and Negroids in the Congo” (Mourant et al., 1976)
Another example of how this author is simply not credible is making a bold, radical satement such as “it was common knowledge that Greeks were a rip off” and not writing in a citation….
Common knowledge back then? Then why is it non-existant in any form of text or image we can trace? How did he manage to get this info? He didnt, its his own personal beleif as opposed to something with historic evidence.
Remember, not everything you read on the internet is true. These websites are ethnic-nationalistic groups, and write ‘historical’ articles with this “truth” the world keeps down. You can find them for tons of different nationalities and peoples in their nationalist groups all around the world, and most of them make claims with no credibility or citations. This article is a good example of the internet being used to put out misinformation as opposed to information.
April 20th, 2007 at 11:50 am. Permalink.
John King:
You don’t learn about it in school, just like you don’t learn about Alien Conspiracies, Scientology - its a personal belief and speculation vs scientific and historical fact.
This article has no credibility guys, proper scholars that have researched and put their life into this and actually used citations of ancient findings didn’t write this down for a reason- its not there.
The Greeks were an Indo-European people. This is has obscene amounts of proof in the scholastic world. They are not originated from Africa. Look at an Ancient Greek pictures and sculptures. They are WHITE, like all other indo- european people. From early early Minoan and Cycladic people you see some dark Egyptian looking peoples- but you also see pale looking white peoples from the same time period.
The Minoans and Cycladics were culturally assimilated Greeks remember, they were not part of the original Greek tribes that settled in Greece. And if the Minoan (presumed “African” culture spread in Greece, whats with the dramatic change in architecture, language, mythology, customs, writing that was so different from Greeks?
April 20th, 2007 at 12:03 pm. Permalink.
Greg
You are one old liar. How dare you cite out dated papers to discredit cogent science.
Are you sure that “HLA genes are not used as a valid measure to determine ancestry since HLA genes, which control immune responses and are subject to environmental selection. ”
Read this.
Vermont bill to use HLA genes to determine Native American ancestry
(Palo Alto, CA, June 6 and 13, 2000)
The Stanford Program in Genomics, Ethics and Society (PGES), of the Stanford Center for Biomedical Ethics, will hold a series of two seminars to discuss potential implications of a bill recently introduced in the Vermont State Assembly to use HLA genes to determine Native American ancestry.
The first seminar, to take place on June 6, 2000, will feature a discussion led by Joanna Mountain, Assistant Professor, Stanford Dept. of Anthropological Sciences.
The second seminar, to take place on June 13, 2000, will be led by Sandra Lee, Stanford Dept. of Anthropology.
The Works in Progress Seminar is a continuing feature of PGES, and is open to all those interested in the social, policy, and ethical implications of emerging genetic technologies. The sessions are planned to be open discussions of new work by the presenters.
For further information about this seminar series, please contact Mildred Cho at micho@leland.stanford.edu or phone 650-725-7993.
April 20th, 2007 at 12:41 pm. Permalink.
The Black Greeks
The distribution of HLA gene frequencies has been studied in Mediterraneans and Amerindians. A revision of the historic postulates in the Mediterranean area should be undertaken since HLA genomics shows that:
1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and West Africans). This is confirmed by other genes from different chromosomes.
2) Turks (Anatolians) do not differ from other ancient Mediterraneans, showing that the Asian Turks carried out an ‘elite’ invasion with a cultural importance (language) but that is not genetically detected.
3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations.
4) There is no genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases.
5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to North-African Berbers.
6) Present day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable HLA profile.
On the other hand, Meso and South American Amerindians HLA gene frequencies were compared with the rest of the world populations also by using genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Meso and South American Amerindians tend to remain isolated from the rest of the world, including Africans, Europeans, Asians, Australians, Polynesians, North American Na-Dene Indians and Eskimos.
See: A Arnaiz-Villena
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Hospital 12 de Octubre, Universidad
Complutense, Madrid, Spain. E-mail: aav@efd.net
April 20th, 2007 at 12:45 pm. Permalink.
Jahdney, you have just posted a genetics paper which was universally condemned as an unscientific, politically motivated attack on Greeks by “Scientists” from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. 5 of the “geneologists” were from this country:
Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit
Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002); doi:10.1038/415115b
Sir – Even though the controversial withdrawal of a paper on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews by the journal Human Immunology (see Nature 414, 382; 2001) is a minor episode compared with the tragedies caused by ethnic/religious conflicts over past decades, the issues involved are worth revisiting.
The stated purpose of the paper by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. was to “examine the genetic relationships between the Palestinians and their neighbours (particularly the Jews) in order to: (1) discover the Palestinian origins, and (2) explain the historic basis of the present … conflict between Palestinians and other Muslim countries with Israelite Jews”.
They conclude: “Jews and Palestinians share a very similar HLA genetic pool that supports a common ancient Canaanite origin. Therefore, the origin of the long-lasting Jewish–Palestinian hostility is the fight for land in ancient times.”
It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.
Our primary concern, however, is that the authors might be perceived to have been discriminated against for political, as opposed to legitimate scientific, reasons.
Even a cursory look at the paper’s diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.
The limitations are made evident by the authors’ extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.
We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.
Neil Risch
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA
Alberto Piazza
Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy
L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA
As a Greek I have nothing against black people and respect Ethiopians as an ancient people like my people but listen to me when I say STOP DEFAMING MY PEOPLE SO YOU CAN PURSUE YOUR OWN REVISIONIST CLAIMS! White supremecist and Bugarian nationalists are using afrocentric ideas against Greeks as well! enough is enough
regards from Greece,
April 21st, 2007 at 12:31 am. Permalink.
thank you sokratis. But this was not an attack from FYROM.
The basis of the report was to prove modern Jews as ancestors of that land of israel(this project was funded by Hungarian Gyorgy George Soros I beleive) but also Soros has been known to support the FYROM political progaganda against Greeks…anyways thats not the point.
That study is all over the internet and is the main source by nationalist internet self-experts of Balkans despite that many major science departments dispute it.
“The limitations are made evident by the authors’ extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans.”
Important line there:
Assuming SubSaharan thing was proof - how on earth are Greeks so distant from the neighboring Europeans, after thousands and thousands of years, Greeks spread all across the region, from what is today Turkey, Bulgaria, Ukraine, and lets not forget Southern Italy was all Greek colonies. That would mean southern Italians would have the same, because that was all settled by Ancient Greeks.
Oh, and the Japanese being closley related to South and East Africans. Yeah theres definitley something wrong there.
April 21st, 2007 at 1:00 am. Permalink.
it wouldnt suprise me at all if this is FYROMian propaganda
i googled Anu Mauro and nothing comes up with that name except for this site, which makes this guys credibility questionable
plus mauro in the greek alphabet translates to black…alittle coincidental. probably one of FYROM’s “many great historians” (LOL) trying to leave a hidden message for the greeks
April 21st, 2007 at 7:01 am. Permalink.
jahdey u must be a FYROMian to believe that stupid study. please read below
“Even a cursory look at the papers diagrams and trees immediatly indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims.
They use a single genetic marker HLA DRB1 for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker particularly one likely to have undergone selection for the purpose of reconstructing geneologies is unreliable and unacceptable pratice in population genetics”
Neil Risch- Stanford University
Alberto Piazza- University of Torino
L. L. Carvalli Sforza- Stanford University
This “research” has nothing to do with science. It is just low anti-Greek propaganda fabricated by anti-Greeks who made up this “research” for political interests in favour of the pseudo-state of FYROM
This “research” is fictious and ridiculous to such a degree, that it was never accepted by any serious scientist and no genealogical approved its publication, so as not to lose their credibility and reputation
—————
an international research paper published in August 2002 before being dropped and ridiculed due to its flawed research. It was devised by researchers (the team included some Macedonian Slavs) at the Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology in the Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain and claimed that Greeks (and Japanese) were shown to have genetic origins in Africa as opposed to Europe. Despite being initially published, the research was finally dismissed in the journal Nature by leading geneticists Neil Risch, Alberto Piazza, and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza:
“The limitations are made evident by the authors’ extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.” Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002)© Macmillan Publishers Ltd.
Ironically the Macedonians (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) in the dropped research were found to be a pure race decended directly from the Ancient Macedonians.
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:22 am. Permalink.
Are you guys joking? Greeks were not and are not black, there is no damn evidence to support that, this is a huge affront to Greek culture, I’m greek, we certainly arent black, and neither were the Egyptians, and neither were the punic people, I understand black nationalism and what its trying to do, but stealing the cultures of other people and trying to claim them for your own isnt helping the african cause, how about you donate funds to poverty stricken people rather than type up this pesudo-science bullshit all day, you’ve got no right to steal culture, and its damn offensive that you try.
June 6th, 2007 at 1:04 pm. Permalink.
Keep on informing Dr Mauro,Africa’s role as Pa & Ma,of current system(s),in all areas of people activity(s),has really been down-played.The collective “white” psyche,realises this,hence the suppression/oppression/falsification of African peoples & History.Race-ism?
June 6th, 2007 at 5:00 pm. Permalink.
Ancient, medieval and modern Greeks were never “black” or “african”, they were always Caucasian in origins and we can take it as far back as with the Minoans 2700 to 1450 BC
June 11th, 2007 at 12:01 pm. Permalink.
seeming most people prefer thesii,please read:
From Babylon to Timbuktu: A History of the Ancient Black Races Including the Black Hebrews by Rudolph R. Windsor , Destruction of Black Civilization : Great Issues of a Race from 4500 B.C to 2000 A.D.By Chancellor Williams, The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality by Cheikh Anta Diop and last but not the least, A Chronology of the Bible: Challenge to the Standard Version (B.C.P. Pamphlet) by Yosef Ben-Jochannan ,among many others,and pray tell what you think.
June 11th, 2007 at 6:05 pm. Permalink.
Anta Diop is just as biased on his research of Afrocentric “history” just as all those Eurocentrics African Americans are calling biased are. He is just another piece to this pseudo history that is being taught to ignorants all over the world.
June 13th, 2007 at 6:06 am. Permalink.
Denial!! Most people are quick to dismiss any literary works by Afro-origin writers yet twice as much to embrace ones by”white”/pale skin,whether fictitious or otherwise,as long as it puts blackman down.There is a word for it too….May JAH open your eyes and save you from yourselves
June 13th, 2007 at 2:17 pm. Permalink.
No people don’t dismiss ALL works by Afro-origin writers, they just dismiss the pseudo works by Afro-origin writers, as Anta Diop has proven to be.
June 13th, 2007 at 7:16 pm. Permalink.
hello how are you?
June 13th, 2007 at 10:58 pm. Permalink.
It’s easy to dismiss “afrocentric” research out of hand but where is your research or evidence. Andrea u say C.A Diop has been “proven” to be a “pseudo” writer yet where is your proof? Eurocentric egyptologists dismiss C.A Diops work but are unable to refute his research.
June 15th, 2007 at 1:22 am. Permalink.
No one said the Greeks were black. This article makes no such claim. The point this article makes s that Greek mythology had many african origins, and it did. Even the ancient Greek historian Herodotus recorded many of the African(primarily Egyptian and Ethiopian) sources of Greek mythology and beliefs.
June 15th, 2007 at 1:28 am. Permalink.
It is easy to dismiss Afrocentric research because most of it is filled with dubious information. Cheikh Anta Diop and Yosef Ben-Jochannan, who bases his most of his research on the misinformation of George James, are some of the worst offenders. What I find funny is these individuals even turn on African scholars such as Clarence E. Walker who provide evidence of how Afrocentric is just as biased and dubious as Eurocentric is. The issue here is reporting historical accounts accurately and neither Eurocentric nor Afrocentric do this.
June 15th, 2007 at 6:37 am. Permalink.
No one has yet to explain how was it that ancient Greeks could report upon the teachings, mythology and culture believes of Egyptian, Ethiopian and others when not one of these Greek scholars, including Herodotus, spoke or understood Egyptian or Ethiopian or whatever. Their knowledge of the different people they met was limited and often very dubious, never mind being influenced by cultures they understood very little about. Its only been in recent modern history that Egyptologists were able to decrypt ancient Egyptian, something the ancient Greeks could not even do never mind trying to explain Egyptian culture, that shows evidence of how limited Greek knowledge of different cultures was. This ability to be able to decrypt ancient Egyptian gives one the ability to read the works of the Egyptians directly from the Egyptians and not the works of dubious Greek interpretations. Meanings and interpretations are often lost in translation from one culture to another, this is not a new phenomena misinterpetations of cultures and people happened all the time but with the ability to understand ancient Egyptian from the Egyptians themselves has given modern Egyptologists a direct insight of who the Egyptians were based upon their writings and not someone else, revealeding that much of what was passed down to us by the Greeks was the Greek interpretations of cultures they did not understand, revealing how different Greek culture was from those others(Egyptian, Ethopian, etc.) that they were writting about. This is why the 17th, 18th and 19th century Eurocentric works that James and others base most of their information upon have been dismissed. These believes that
Afrocentric scholars hold are not new ones, most are based upon the dubious works and Romantic ideas of 17th, 18th and 19th century Eurocentric belief system. In fact if we look at what the ancient Greeks write, we will find that the opposite is true. Ancient Hellenist scholars were one of the first to teach about ethnocentric and most Greek academia was highly biased with Hellenocentricism. The philosophy, historiography, and polity of other highly educated societies was often neglected from being taught to students, or worse, treated as invalid.
June 15th, 2007 at 7:10 am. Permalink.
Do you know where the oldest uni in the world is at?whose works are you basing you comments on?Or is it speculation and Caucasoid-theory-can you prove beyond resonable doubt,differences between greek and aegyptian/gypsie cultures? Romance aside how well do you know Africa?
June 15th, 2007 at 2:00 pm. Permalink.
I am basing my information upon the research works of Egyptologists and Classicists and they have already shown there is a difference between Greek and Egyptian cultures because unlike their predecessors, modern Egyptologists can now decrypt ancient Egyptian and its evidence shows against Afroasiatic influences across the ancient Greek culture. If what Bernal and other Afrocentric state is true then we would expect to find Egyptian influence not just in the outermost peripheries of Greek culture and practices but on the central elements themselves, on what was most unique in about ancient Greek culture. Do the institutions of Greek culture and civilization resemble those of Egypt or Africa? Most evidence discovered so far proves not and instead show how different Egyptian culture and ideas were from those of Greek. Egypt was a noble culture but to assert that it had anything to do with Greek democracy, philosophy or their religious believes is ludicrous. The Greeks believed passionately in the human free will even when that will conflicted with that of the gods. Politically, they rejected hierocracy and priestly rule even before recorded history begins. Egypt, by contrast, was a theocracy in the most literal sense throughout its long history. History to the Greeks was an account of individuality while Egypt chronicles was all events to the uniform and ceremonial pattern of the cosmic order. Even during Ptolemaic rule of Egypt yes there was some infused Egyptian & Greek ideas and symbolism which was at that time not an easy balance between old Hellenic models of autocracy and the oldest royal theology of the conquered country. Although the Greek and Egyptian cultures had started slowly to blend in everyday life under the Ptolemeis, there always remained marked incompatibilities between the two because of the different perceptions of the Greek mind (insisting on binary alternatives) verses that of the Egyptian mind (where opposite concepts can coexist). These two very different mind sets was the cause of separation between the two cultures a desirable and encouraged act by the Ptolemaic rulers in order to preserve the cultural identity of the dominant Greek minority (the gymnasium class) from being absorbed into the Egyptian one within a few generations. Ptolemies never encouraged the learning of local language and literature in Greek schools, not a programme fostered or encouraged by the court. The two cultures were much more different then alike then most people think.
June 15th, 2007 at 5:36 pm. Permalink.
You make some very legitimate points yet there are a few misconceptions. Firstly during the time of Greek historians like Herodotus, there were Greek settlements in Egypt. These Greek settlers of course spoke Greek,, but they also learned the Egyptian language. These Greeks living in Egypt served as interpreters to Greek travelers like Herodotus, who could interpret what the Egyptian priests would recount. Secondly, Egyptian ideas did not influence alll of Greece true,, but many and this the most influential scholars and philosophers did go to Egypt and learn. The ideas and philosophy they brought back were rejected by the ethnocentrist Greeks primarily because they were so foreign to Greek ideas. Philosophers like Aristotle and Socrates were rejected and sentenced to death for introducing such foreign concepts into Greece. Yet these very men re now hailed as the gfathers of Greek Philosophy. A philosophy that they learned in Egypt and were hated for and executed for by the Greek elites. Another thing the Egyptian language was only lost after the Christian era around the 3rd century A.D when the Egyptian temples were shut down and the sacred writings banned. After this time the language became lost til modern times when the Rosetta stone was found. Interestingly this sone the key to understanding ancient Egyptian was inscribed during the time of the Greek ruler of Egypt Ptolemy. So obviously there were Greeks that were very knowledgable of the Egyptian language. Greek culture was very different and unique from Egypt.. but there were very strong influences flowing from this part of Africa.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:24 am. Permalink.
Interesting points and valid in some instances. Many cultures, including Egyptian influence each other and Greek culture does not fall out of that norm, that is true but not to the extend that some are trying to make it out. Aristotle and Socrates, especially Aristotle were Hellenocentricism, and a correction on their “death sentences”: Aristotle was not put to death for anything, he was very Hellenocentric and he died of natural causes; he was an outcast from Athens because he was not an Athenian native not because he taught “Egyptian ideology”, he was from the Greek northern city, Stageira. Socrates was put to death as a traitor to Athens because his ideas and views were seen as favorable towards Sparta during the Peloponnese wars. In other words he favorite Spartan ideology over Athenian and at a time when these two cities were fighting with each other that was a dangerous thing to do. You are correct that there were Greek cities on the Northern seacoasts of N. Africa long before Alexander the Great but their their supposed “learning” of Egyptian is greatly exaggerated, most Egyptian they “learned” they Hellinized, such as “Zeus Ammon” a bad rendering of Amun which is Egyptian for “hidden one”, but the Greeks revised “Amun” to “Ammon” which is Greek fro “Sand”, in other words the Greek translation meant “God of Sands” not “God of mystery” as the original meaning for Amun did. Whatever Egyptian and other native languages Greeks in diaspora learned they were bad renderance and often Hellinized to better understand foreign concepts they came into contact with.
June 18th, 2007 at 7:03 am. Permalink.
Andrea
Your posts are idle chit-chats disgusied as something scholarly.
Just cite me one peer reviewed authority that supports your view. Just one…on a view of the Y-haplotype of Greeks, or on your view of cranofacial metrics.
Besides, do you figure that reciting “caucasiod” like a rote learning infant would cut any ice with me. Essentially, you may need to understand that caucasiod means nothing.
It is a useless expressive term anachronistic and obsolete. It is neither scientifc nor factual. According to that the theory of that word, there are more Black caucasians than there are white caucasians. For example Tutsis, Fulanis, Hausas, Amharas, Masais, Somalis, Yemenis, etc etc all have caucasiod features. But all reasonable people know that they are Black Africans.
The focus on this site is the achievement of Black Africans. We do not recognize your ignorant definition of “true African” or true blacks or true negroes. There are no such things. We all Black and Brown Africans are the same products of the same love.
You need to go figure out why northern Europeans remain physically on the outliers of the human family. You need to figure out where your complexes arise. But don’t hate on the Africans, and don’t try sounding smarter than you really are. Cause that comes off very flat.
Jahdey
June 19th, 2007 at 1:49 pm. Permalink.
“Shortly after this, three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, argued that the scientific limitations of Arnaiz-Villena’s methodology.[13] They stated that “Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.”, making specific allusion to the findings on Greeks (among others) as “anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups.”
“The most comprehensive study of Y-chromosomal diversity in Europe thus far is Rosser et al., [1]. The human Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. One can thus study one half of a population’s ancestry (along the paternal line) by studying the Y-chromosome. Greek Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26. None of the 35 Greek Y chromosomes are of non-Caucasoid origin.
A second Y-chromosome study including Greeks have also shown similar results. Helgason et al., [2] reports one HG16 sequence of North Eurasian provenance in a sample of 42 Greeks (at least 97.6% Caucasoid). To put this in perspective, eight HG16 chromosomes occur in 110 Swedes (at least 92.7% Caucasoid) and three HG16 sequences in 112 Norwegians (at least 97.3% Caucasoid) were also found. HG16 is shared by many populations ranging from Europe to Mongolia. Its origin has been placed by [7] in the Eastern range of its current geographical distribution.
A third Y-chromosome study, by Malaspina et al., [3] which included a sample of 28 continental and 83 Cretan Greeks (total sample size of 111) found no evidence of the presence of non-Caucasoid Y chromosomes in Greeks.
A fourth Y-chromosome study, by Semino et al., [4] included 76 Greeks and 20 Macedonian Greeks. One Eu6 lineage, corresponding to HG10/HG36 [5] is probably of East Asian origin. One Eu17 lineage corresponds to HG 28 which is frequent in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent [6]. In total, admixture of 2.1% is detected (if we label HG 28 as non-Caucasoid).
A fifth Y-chromosome study, by Weale et al., [8] included 132 Greek students from Athens. The same haplogroups found in [1] were detected in this study. No non-Caucasoid chromosomes were found.
The most recent and comprehensive study of Greek Y-chromosomes, by Di Giacomo et al., [9] included 154 individuals from continental Greece and 212 from Crete, Lesvos and Chios. In total, Greeks from thirteen separate locations were examined, thus giving the most complete picture of variation so far. A single haplogroup A chromosome was found (in Lesvos) which is usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations. The breakup (in percent) of the haplogroups observed) based on the set of markers typed is as follows.”
I suggest you study genetics since you didn’t know the basic simple scientific studies that have been conducted and with the DNA advantages we have nowadays their results are pretty accurate.
June 19th, 2007 at 4:19 pm. Permalink.
“Highly polymorphic DNA loci were tested in Greek population samples residing in geographic areas of Greece, populations of Greeks from Asia Minor/N. Africa living in eastern and central Macedonia (Figure 1) and compared to skeleton remains from ancient Greek burial grounds from antiquity. These population groups were chosen to provide material that is relevant to the cultural, historical, and genetic questions regrading Greek migrations through out the centuries. Eastern Macedonia is a region north of the Aegean where Neolithic settlements appeared. In central Macedonia there are many excavation sites, such as Dion, Aiges, Pella, Edessa, and Sindos, and the oldest Neolithic settlement was found in Nicomedia, between the Aliakmonas and Axios rivers, which were important for the transmission of farming to Europe from the Axios valley. In Thessaly the fertile plains are of central importance for the first farmers of Europe, where the Neolithic (5000-4000 B.C.) settlement of Sesklo was found. In the mountain region of Epirus there are possible preNeolithic elements. Finally, the Greeks from Asia Minor & N. Africa were chosen because of the Greek presence that was in those regions and the Fertile Crescent of the Near East prior 1922 due to Greek migration from the Greek mainland since antiquity. No statistically significant heterogeneity (p > 0.30) was observed in the gene frequencies between the pooled Greek data and other European populations(Schnee-Griese et al. 1993; Buscemi et al. 1994; Klintschar and Kubat 1995; Martin et al. 1995; Pestoni et al. 1996; Rose et al. 1996; PerezLezaun et al. 1997). At the DI S80 and DI 7S5 loci the allele frequencies were not significantly different between our pooled data and data from other studies on the Greek population (p = 0.48 and p = 0.61, respectively) (Hatzaki et al. 1995). These results support the notion of Alonso et al. (1995) that the allele frequencies of microsatellite loci are well preserved in Europeans. In conclusion, this survey provides the allele frequencies for the construction of a Greek genetic database, indicates that any peculiarities of some markers that may be able to discriminate between population samples from Greece, points toward the similarity of the Greek population sample to other European populations, and interpret the genetic data in light of the known history of the studied populations. No significant differences with other European populations were found for the loci studied.” -Genetic studies in Greek population samples using 12 highly polymorphic DNA loci: Human Biology, Wayne State University Press Feb 1999
June 19th, 2007 at 4:28 pm. Permalink.
“The focus on this site is the achievement of Black Africans. We do not recognize your ignorant definition of “true African” or true blacks or true negroes.”
Sorry to break it to you but ancient Greeks were not “Black Africans” and Africa is a huge continent with many different peoples and cultures that passed through to claim them all “black” is very misleading.
June 19th, 2007 at 4:54 pm. Permalink.
the genetics studies are what hitler based his”final solution” on,performed by his leading & respected scientists /geneticists.please,please do not take us there
June 19th, 2007 at 11:55 pm. Permalink.
These genetic studies have nothing to do with Hitler. The geneticists and anthropologists who conducted these studies such as Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza are well respected within the science world. Not one of them ever claim that humans did not originate from Africa but trying to make every single human on the planet through out human history and into today as if they are/were ALL “black African” is ridiculously naive and goes against the evolution ideology that is at the heart of the “out of Africa” theory. These scientists are respected world wide by various races of people and due to the scientific method of the research work they can be tested and retested to prove validity by scientists who can back up the data or contradict it with their independent of each other findings. By the way, it is such genetists as Cavalli who’s research work proved Hitler’s propaganda work about his “Aryan Nation” myth to be nothing but racist and untrue but at the same time their scientific work also proves how propaganda certain Afrocentric believes have become. So if people are going to believe them about their work that show’s Hitler’s racists Eurocentric attitudes towards genetics then I find it pretty hypocritical that they WON’T believe these same scientists who’s research work also contradict these Afrocentric views. People need to really stop believing that ones ‘race’ is skin deep, to learn about human evolution and population movements through out human history one needs to read upon the latest scientific information on genetics and anthropological. So that excuse of trying to compare Hitler’s propaganda with what these genetists have done, does not compared and can not be applied with them. The physical “stereotypes” of race, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza wrote in The History and Geography of Human Genes, “reflect superficial differences.”
June 20th, 2007 at 5:42 am. Permalink.
Andrea cites this excerpt:
“No significant differences with other European populations were found for the loci studied.” -Genetic studies in Greek population samples using 12 highly polymorphic DNA loci: Human Biology, Wayne State University Press Feb 1999″
Jahdey Responds:
Another sign of low-rank misconception. Andrea quoted extensively from an excerpt that had no relevance to the questions he was asked. The query was: provide us with just one genetic study which dissociates the ancient greeks from Africa. He provided a quote he barely understood its significance…an excerpt that focussed on a 1999 study that indicated a Europe wide relationship based on some loci in the DNA strand.
I asked for referenced sources respecting Andrea’s claim that ancient Greeks were different from Africans based on craniofacial metrics. Andrea could not do so. What a shame for a vituperating Racialist.
Andrea’s shamefaced silence and strawman’s manouver do not address the question asked. I will provide the answer Andrea could not.
Primarily, HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. The studies demonstrate that Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers.
The Greeks have a very high prevalence of the E haplogroup, especially for the E3B and E3A which are specific to Black Africa. E3B is East African, whereas E3A is West African. See http://www.africaresource.com/.....t-greece/;
Clade E3b1 lineages, is frequent in the Greeks. See, European Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 15, 121–126. See also http://www.egyptsearch.com/for.....;t=005240.
According to Cruciani: “The human Y-chromosome haplogroup E is characterized by the mutations SRY4064, M96, and P29, on a background defined by the insertion of an Alu element (YAP+) (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003). Two of the three branches of haplogroup E, the major clades E1 and E2, have been observed almost exclusively on the African continent, where their distribution has been analyzed in detail (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002). The third branch, the clade E3, defined by the mutation P2, is the only one that has also been observed in Europe and in western Asia, where it has generally been found at frequencies <25% (Hammer et al. 2000, 2001; Semino et al. 2000; Scozzari et al. 2001; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004).
On the basis of the previously published phylogeny (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003), the mutations M2/P1/M180, on the one hand, and M35/M215, on the other, further subdivide E3 in two monophyletic haplogroups: E3a and E3b. Both haplogroups are frequent in Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002), although, to date, only E3b has also been observed in Europe (Semino et al. 2000) and western Asia (Underhill et al. 2000; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004). Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001)."
A study by by Di Giacomo et al. found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A which is highly specific to West Africa, R1a, DE, and J2*(xDYS413= 18)J*(xJ2). R1* which probably gave rise to R1a is found in Northern Cameroon. DE is found principally among Nigerians and it is suspected that it originated from Nigeria. J is very prominent in East, and North Africa.
A newer study by Semino et al. examined two samples of Greeks of size 84 and 59 (Macedonian Greeks). The focus was on two specific haplogroups E and J which arose in Africa and which are frequent in the Mediterranean region and can be used to detect population movements between Europe, Africa and the Near East. 2.4% of Greeks belong in haplogroup E-M123 and 21.4% in E-M78.
Most Greeks (22.8% Greeks/14.3% Macedonian Greeks) belong to J-M172 and its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements. Only 1.8%/2.2% of Macedonian Greeks/Greeks belonged to haplogroup J-M267 which could potentially (althought not certainly) reflect more recent Near Eastern admixture. Haplogroup J is a signature for Black East Africa and its satellites cultures such as Yemen, Southern Arabia and India where Black Africans have been prominent since ancient times.
Greeks also have the Benin Sickle Cell Haplogroup. Benin Sickle Cell haplogroup originated in Nigeria west Africa, Black Africans. See Three cases of sickle cell anemia in Greek children Minerva Pediatr. 1954 Jul 31;6(14):563-7. See also: S. Dourakis, A. Alexopoulou, C. Papageorgiou, A. Kaloterakis, S. Hadziyannis, Acute chest syndrome in sickle-cell traitTwo case reports in persons of Mediterranean origin and review of the literature. European Journal of Internal Medicine, Volume 15, Issue 4, Pages 248-250
The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa. Graham R. Serjeant, THE GEOGRAPHY OF SICKLE CELL DISEASE: OPPORTUNITIES FOR UNDERSTANDING ITS DIVERSITY, http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/143/rev9239.html
So Andrea, this just goes to demonstrate to you that from a genetic science view point, tropical Africans and ancient Greeks were inter-related peoples as was rightly cited by the Kebra Negasta one of the oldest and most authoritative books of the Ethiopians.
It might be more interesting to you to know that, whilst Greeks were busy interacting with their Kiths and Kins of Africa, they despised with a vehemence all the “barbarians of Northern Europe including the Germanic Goremen, the Vandals, the Tuetons etc. It remains one of the lasting ironies of our modern age, that the descendants of those barbarians today claim the legacies of ancient Greeks as if that were the case ever in the ancient time.
I trust that a more balanced reading of history, and a more introspective approach would teach you about the hidden aspects of western history and its tendency to misappropriate what never belonged to it.
Peace
Jahdey
And see the references below. Search them out and read them so that you can comprehend better the quote you just cited that: “The physical “stereotypes” of race,reflect superficial differences.” Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in The History and Geography of Human Genes. Because if every one came out of Africa, then there is only one race which is the black race. All other colours are different shades of Black Africans!!! http://www.africaresource.com/.....-of-black/
See
Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Mol Phyl Evol 28:387-395
Semino et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. Am J Hum Genet
Cruciani et al. (2004) Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa. Am J Hum Genet
Al-Zahery et al. (2003) Y-chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms in Iraq, a crossroad of the early human dispersal and of post-Neolithic migrations. Mol Phyl Evol 28:458-472
Ragusa A, Lombardo M, Sortino G, et al. ßs gene in Sicily is in linkage disequilibrium with the Benin haplotype: implications for gene flow. Am J Hematol 1988;27:139-41.
Ojwang PJ, Ogada T, Beris P, et al. Haplotypes and a globin gene analysis in sickle cell anaemia patients from Kenya. Br J Haematol 1987;65:211-5.
El-Hazmi MAF. Beta globin gene haplotypes in the Saudi sickle cell anemia patients. Human Heredity 1990;40:177-86.
Padmos MA, Roberts GT, Sackey K, et al. Two different forms of homozygous sickle cell disease occur in Saudi Arabia. Br J Haematology 1991;79:93-8.
Kulozik AE, Wainscoat JS, Serjeant GR, et al. Geographical survey of bs-globin gene haplotypes: evidence for an independent Asian origin of the sickle cell mutation. Am J Hum Genet 1986;39:239-44.
Zago MA, Figueiredo MS, Ogo SH. Bantu bs cluster haplotype predominates among Brazilian Blacks. Am J Phys Anthropol 1992;88:295-8.
Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas Ph. The origin of the sickle cell mutation in Greece: evidence from bs globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Hemoglobins 1991;15:459-67.
Aluoch JR, Kilinç Y, Aksoy M, et al. Sickle cell anaemia among Eti-Turks: haematological, clinical and genetic observations. Br J Haematol 1986;64:45-55.
June 20th, 2007 at 11:30 am. Permalink.
Jahdey, do you read what you copy and pasted? You just posted the same research work that I did which points to what I stated before; that Africans and Greeks both modern and ancient, were NOT inter-related peoples since pre-historical times at least not in the sense that you are claiming them to be. HgE3a is by far the most frequent Y-chromosomal lineage in Africa, existing at 48% in a continent-wide sample of 1122 chromosomes, the HgE3a has not been found in ancient nor modern Greeks. Let me break it down for you:
“The Greeks have a very high prevalence of the E haplogroup, especially for the E3B and E3A which are specific to Black Africa. E3B is East African, whereas E3A is West African. See http://www.africaresource.com/…..t-greece/;
Clade E3b1 lineages, is frequent in the Greeks. See, European Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 15, 121–126. See also http://www.egyptsearch.com/for…..;t=005240.”
Wrong, for one you are misquoting what is being said in the European Journal of Human Genetics. For one the journal does not claim that Clade E3b1found in Greeks show a lineages to Black Africans. This haplogroup is found in Africa, the Middle East, and Europe. In Africa it is by far the most common haplogroup and is believed to have originated there some 50,000 years before present. Outside of Africa, Haplogroup E is found at moderate to low frequencies and largely belonging to the E3b subgroup. Haplogroup E3b is believed to represent ancient genetic influence from East Africa, mediated by West Asian populations entering Europe during the Neolithic revolution (the spread of agriculture from Asia Minor). Here is a example for you: Egyptians tend toward the sub-Saharan cluster because they have both levels of E3A A and B, however, they also have a substantial E3B and J aligns them with Caucasoids two haplogroups (E3B and J) that is common among non-African people of which the Greeks, Italians, Spaniards and other Europeans fall under. Greeks, Italians, Spaniards and other Europeans groups have no sub-Saharan lineages, which is why these groups cluster entirely on the European/Caucasoid side of the plot. Haplogroup E3a is an Africa lineage. It is currently hypothesized that this haplogroup dispersed south from northern Africa within the last 3,000 years, by the Bantu agricultural expansion. E3a is also the most common lineage among African Americans. Test reveal that ancient and modern Greeks did not nor have they E3A lineage. Haplogroup E3b evolved in the Middle East and expanded into the Mediterranean and Europe during the Pleistocene Neolithic expansion. The E3B is found in many Europeans and it is a specific mutation of the E haplogroup theorized from some 8000 years ago. Meaning, it’s more then likely a Neolithic MUTATION, and as with other Neolithic haplogroups came to Europe through the Middle East. Greeks do not have non-European haplogroups such as N3 and E3a which are prevalent in Asia and sub-Saharan Africa, respectively.
“According to Cruciani: “The human Y-chromosome haplogroup E is characterized by the mutations SRY4064, M96, and P29, on a background defined by the insertion of an Alu element (YAP+) (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003). Two of the three branches of haplogroup E, the major clades E1 and E2, have been observed almost exclusively on the African continent, where their distribution has been analyzed in detail (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002). The third branch, the clade E3, defined by the mutation P2, is the only one that has also been observed in Europe and in western Asia, where it has generally been found at frequencies
June 20th, 2007 at 6:32 pm. Permalink.
Again E1 and E2 are observed almost exclusively on the African continent BUT the third branch, the clade E3, what many Europeans, including Greeks, carrry is defined by MUTATION in Europe and west Asia. E3 is the only one that has been observed in Europe and in western Asia. This exactly what I just stated above, that E3 is more then likely a Neolithic mutation of the E haplogroup theorized from some 8000 years ago that originated from Africa. In human genetics, Haplogroup E3b is a Y-chromosome haplogroup with a distribution spreading from Africa around the Mediterranean into Europe and the Middle East. You know that little theory that scientists and anthropologists are teaching that humans expanded from Africa? This is what they are talking about, you have to understand human evolution first and not take out of context the research work.
“A study by by Di Giacomo et al. found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A which is highly specific to West Africa, R1a, DE, and J2*(xDYS413= 18)J*(xJ2). R1* which probably gave rise to R1a is found in Northern Cameroon. DE is found principally among Nigerians and it is suspected that it originated from Nigeria. J is very prominent in East, and North Africa.”
Once more lets put things into proper context, shall we.
Firstly break down Haplogroup A:The oldest haplogroup, parent of all other haplogroups, is called L3 and is located in Africa where Homo sapiensis believed to have originated. L3, also called Lara by the researcher Bryan Sykes (founder of Oxford Ancestors, one of the first companies to offer haplotyping to the public), is the founder of many African mtDNA lineages. Roughly 70,000 to 80,000 years ago, L3 split into two founding lineages called M and N. These two Super-Haplogroups are the ancestor of all non-African mtDNA(Greeks and most other Europeans, ME and Asians fall under M or N, hence the reason why these groups are labeled as non-African).
Haplogroup A (mtDNA): is believed to have arisen in Asia some 60,000 years before present. Its ancestral haplogroup was Haplogroup N. Haplogroup A is found throughout modern Asia. Its subgroup A1 is found in northern and central Asia, while its subgroup A2 is found in Siberia and is also one of five haplogroups found in the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the others being B, C, D, and X. Refrences: Mitochondrial haplogroup skeleton, by Vincent Macaulay and Journal of Human Genetics
Haplogroup A (Y-DNA): In human genetics, Haplogroup A (M91) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. Haplogroup A is localized to East Africa and Southern Africa and represents the oldest and most diverse of the human Y-chromosome haplogroups. It is believed to be the haplogroup corresponding to Y-chromosomal Adam.
Haplogroup R is not an African originator. In human genetics, Haplogroup R is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup, a subgroup of haplogroup P, associated with the M207 mutation. It is believed to have occurred somewhere in Northwest Asia between 30,000 and 35,000 years ago, mainly represented in two lineages. Lineage R1a is thought to have originated in the Eurasian Steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas. It is associated with the Kurgan culture, known for the domestication of the horse (approximately 3000 B.C.E.). This lineage is currently found in central and western Asia, India, and Eastern Europe. Lineage R1b originated prior to the end of the last ice age where it was concentrated in refugia in southern Europe and Iberia and is the most common in European populations. It is especially common in the west of Ireland where it approaches 100% of the population. This haplogroup contains the Atlantic modal STR haplotype. One isolated clade (or clades) of Y chromosomes that appear to belong to Haplogroup R1b1* (P25) is found at high frequency among the native populations of northern Cameroon in west-central Africa, which is believed to reflect a prehistoric back-migration of an ancient proto-Eurasian population into Africa. Semino et al, The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo Sapiens Sapiens in Extant Europeans. (pdf) Science, V290:1155-1159, 2000. Semino et al, Ethiopians and Khoisan Share the Deepest Clades of the Human Y-Chromosome Phylogeny. (pdf) American Journal of Human Genetics, 70:265-268, 2002
Haplogroup DE is the original YAP+ haplogroup[1]. Haplogroup DE* has been found at a very low frequency among the males of modern populations of Nigeria. A quick note on this paper: haplogroup D is a phylogenetic sibling of haplogroup E of Western Eurasia. The ancestral haplogroup DE is defined by the YAP+ Alu insertion with Eastern Ukrainians. Haplogroup D is not however found anywhere in East Asia except in Japan and Okinawa and may represent an important link between the West and the East. J Hum Genet. 2004 Mar 2 [Epub ahead of print] ; Tajima A et al. (notice DE is found in very low frequences in modern Nigerian populations meaning this is another mutation introduced into Africa after the pre-historic migrartion)
Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) (previously known as HG9 or Eu9/Eu10) is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. It is defined by the 12f2.1 genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker. Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Near East (Semino et al. 2004). It is most closely related to Haplogroup I,(most commonly in Scandinavia, Sardinia, and the Slavic populations of the Western Balkans in southeastern Europe), as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22). Haplogroup IJ is in turn derived from Haplogroup F. The main current subgroups J1 and J2, which now account between them for almost all of the population of the haplogroup, are both believed to have arisen very early, at least 10,000 years ago.
Haplogroup J (mtDNA) originated around 45,000 years before present when a mutation took place in the DNA of a woman who lived in the Anatolian-Caucasus region. Further mutations took place in the J line which can be identified as J1a1 (27,000 yrs ago), J2a (19,000 yrs ago), J2b2 (16,000 years ago), J2b3 (5,800 yrs ago), etc. Haplogroup J (along with ‘T’) is associated with the spread of farming and herding in Europe during the Neolithic Era (8,000-10,000 yrs ago). All other West Eurasian-origin groups (H, V, U, K, W, I, X) were previously given to hunting and gathering. Average frequency of J Haplogroup as a whole is highest in the Near East (12%), followed by Europe (11%), Caucasus (8%) and North Africa (6%). Of the two main sub-groups, J1 takes up four-fifths of the total and is spread on the continent while J2 is more localised around the Mediterranean, notably in Turkey, Greece, Italy/Sardinia and Spain. A surprising presence of J2 (10%) amongst the Mansi of Ob river valleys indicates a Neolithic Phase expansion towards the Urals. - Patterns of mtDNA Diversity in Europe, Lucia Simoni, 2000 ; Human Mitochondrial Haplogroup J in Europe and Near East, Piia Serk, 2004.
The most recent and comprehensive study of Greek Y-chromosomes, by Di Giacomo et al., [9] included 154 individuals from continental Greece and 212 from Crete, Lesvos and Chios. In total, Greeks from thirteen separate locations were examined, thus giving the most complete picture of variation so far. A single haplogroup A chromosome was found (in Lesvos) which is that usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations. The breakup (in percent) of the haplogroups observed) based on the set of markers typed is as follows.
P*(xR1a) R1a DE G2 I-M170 J2(DYS413= 18) J2*(xDYS413= 18) J*(xJ2) A Y*(xA,DE,G2,I,J,P)
12.8% 9.8 20.2 6.6 14.8% 20.2% 4.9% 2.7% 0.3 7.7%
If you take notice from the chart that Di Giacomo et al. provided 27.8% of Greeks fall under the HgJ2 the genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker arisen 31,700 years ago from the Anatolian-Caucasus regionand of which is most closely related to Haplogroup I,(most commonly in Scandinavia, Sardinia, and the Slavic populations of the Western Balkans in southeastern Europe), as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22). Haplogroup IJ is in turn derived from Haplogroup F (defining mutations M89, P14, and M213) the Y-chromosome haplogroupand its subclades contain more than 90% of the world’s extant male population, including almost everyone outside of Africa, Tibet, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Japan, Polynesia, and communities of indigenous Australians, while also including many men within those regions.
“A newer study by Semino et al. examined two samples of Greeks of size 84 and 59 (Macedonian Greeks). The focus was on two specific haplogroups E and J which arose in Africa and which are frequent in the Mediterranean region and can be used to detect population movements between Europe, Africa and the Near East. 2.4% of Greeks belong in haplogroup E-M123 and 21.4% in E-M78.”
I like how you did not include what the REST of that study states, in other words altering the study completely from what the scientific evidence tells us. Such as the part that states less 1% of a non-Caucasoid haplogroup is found in both modern and ancient Greek populations, but before I do, do notice how only 2.4%(in other words only about 2% of the Greek population) belongs to the haplogroups E-M123. E-M123 and its daughter haplogroup E-M34 originated in the Near East in prehistoric times. HgE-M78 that is found in 21.4% of Greeks is a Balkan mutation marker found in less frequencies outside the Balkan region and speaks of migrations from the Balkan region not the other way around. Here is what was left out from the paragraph above:
Clades of E prevalent in Northern or Sub-Saharan Africa were not found. According to Cruciani et al. [11] most Greeks and other Balkan people belong to a specific cluster a within haplogroup E-M78 that is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan area. E-M123 and its daughter haplogroup E-M34 originated in the Near East in prehistoric times. As for haplogroup J, most Greeks (22.8% Greeks/14.3% Macedonian Greeks) belong to J-M172 and its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements. Only 1.8%/2.2% of Macedonian Greeks/Greeks belonged to haplogroup J-M267 which could potentially (althought not certainly) reflect more recent Near Eastern admixture.
“Haplogroup J is a signature for Black East Africa and its satellites cultures such as Yemen, Southern Arabia and India where Black Africans have been prominent since ancient times.”
Nope wrong again. Genetic studies done by Semino et al, Al-Zahery et al , Cinnioglu et al, Paracchini et al and many other genecists reveal that the Haplogroup J originates in the Fertile Crescent as I broke it down for you above, not Africa. From there J is broken into two branches, J1 and J2. These two branches expanded out from the Fertile Crescent about 7000-9000 years ago. J2 expanded towards Europe as a result all European J’s belong to J2 with presence found in subgroups of India, Pakistan and Nepal. J1 expanded out from the Fertile Crescent towards the Middle East, Arabia, East and North Africa. The highest frequencies of J1 (J-M267) are seen in the Middle East, north Africa, and Ethiopia. As it is revealed in the study above by Semino et al only 2% of Greeks carry Haplogroup J1 (J-M267) and that is of ME origins, hardly the “high frequency of Black African origins” falsely stated by you.
Bosch et al. [14] studied Y chromosome variation in the Balkans, including a sample of 41 Greeks. Greeks belonged to the major Caucasoid haplogroups. The identity of the K*(xP) chromosomes is not clear, but they could belong to the minor Caucasoid haplogroups K2 and L which have been previously observed in Greeks, or to other K-related lineages.
E3b1 E3b3 G I J2 K*(xP) R1a1 R1b
17.1 2.4 4.9 19.5 19.5 2.4 22.0 12.2
Again all these haplogroups fall under Caucasoid haplogroups not African.
Firasat et al. [15] tested 77 Greeks as part of a study of the purported Greek origins of certain ethnic groups of Pakistan. The breakdown of the observed haplogroups is given in the table below. One haplogroup H2 was observed, which is more typical of South Asian populations.
E3b*(xE3b1,E3b3) E3b1 E3b3 F*(xG,H1,H2,I,J,K) G H2 I J1 J2 K*(xK2,L,NO,P) K2 R1*(xR1a1) R1a1
1.3 16.9 2.6 1.3 9.1 1.3 19.5 1.3 15.6 1.3 2.6 11.7 1 5.6
Martinez et al. [16] has studied a sample of 168 Greek men from Lasithi and Heraklion in Crete. No Sub-Saharan African influence was detected, and 2 Q chromosomes, which could conceivably be indicative of Asian influence were detected. The exact origin of these is uncertain, since no downstream markers were typed. Thus, at present, in a total of seven studies, in which 1,211 Greeks were tested, one HG16, one HG28, one HG10/HG36, one H2, one haplogroup A, and two haplogroup Q chromosomes have been found, for a total of 0.58% possible non-Caucasoid contribution to the modern Greek male gene pool. Additionally, the latest studies [9, 10] with a more refined version of the Y chromosome phylogeny indicate that influences from the Near East and North Africa in historical times are unlikely (perhaps in the order of ~2%). According to Di Giacomo et al, Semino et al., Al-Zahery et al. the emerging picture of Y chromosome variation in Greece indicates genetic continuity, with slight influences from neighboring Caucasoid regions and virtually little influence from non-Caucasoids since ancient times.
Flores et al. [13] have compiled haplogroup and sub-haplogroup data from three of the afore-mentioned studies which included Greek samples [4, 9, 10]. The total sample size of this meta-analysis is 442. An error has resulted in the false inclusion of 0.2% frequency of haplogroup B which was not reported in the original sources (A.M. González, personal communication). The table of haplogroup frequencies reported in [13] is given below:
A C E3b3 E3b1 F*(xG,H,I,J,K) G I J1 J2 K2 L R1*(xR1a1) R1a1
0.2 1.3 2.0 18.6 3.4 5.9 13.6 2.5 24.5 1.1 1.1 15.4 10.2
So in closing studies contacted by Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Mol Phyl Evol 28:387-395 and Semino et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. Am J Hum Genet (to appear) with a more refined version of the Y chromosome phylogeny indicate that influences from the Black Africa during ancient times is highly unlikely since studies reveal a less then ~2% of influence.
June 20th, 2007 at 6:34 pm. Permalink.
Andrea cuts and paste without understanding that he is undermining himself:
Haplogroup A (Y-DNA):
In human genetics, Haplogroup A (M91) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. Haplogroup A is localized to East Africa and Southern Africa and represents the oldest and most diverse of the human Y-chromosome haplogroups. It is believed to be the haplogroup corresponding to Y-chromosomal Adam.
Jahdey responds:
HgA Y chromosome is African. It was also observed in some Greek samples indicating the presence of a population which such profile lived in greece in ancient times. HgA indicates African men. End of argument.
Andrea proclaims:
Haplogroup R is not an African originator….One isolated clade (or clades) of Y chromosomes that appear to belong to Haplogroup R1b1* (P25) is found at high frequency among the native populations of northern Cameroon in west-central Africa, which is believed to reflect a prehistoric back-migration of an ancient proto-Eurasian population into Africa.
Jahdey Responds:
Well Andrea, all your rambling has shown you is that there are Black Africans with hgR1b1* a haplogroup which is related (subclade) to the so-called hgR. There is clear undeniable genetic kinship between all the R group. Do you follow my teachings? Then there is underived hgR* the probable ancestor of all the R haplogroup. Note the asterix on the underived R*. I cited sources for your enlightenment on the nature and origin of R*. But do some goggle it yourself, and you will find that R* is most probably African in origin according to the latest studies.
Andrea rants:
Haplogroup DE is the original YAP+ haplogroup[1]. Haplogroup DE* has been found at a very low frequency among the males of modern populations of Nigeria….(notice DE is found in very low frequences in modern Nigerian populations meaning this is another mutation introduced into Africa after the pre-historic migrartion)
Jahdey Responds:
But DE occurs in its highest frequency in Nigeria. If you know elsewhere DE is more prevalent do mention it.
Andrea quotes the racist Dieneke’s site:
If you take notice from the chart that Di Giacomo et al. provided 27.8% of Greeks fall under the HgJ2 the genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker arisen 31,700 years ago from the Anatolian-Caucasus regionand of which is most closely related to Haplogroup I,(most commonly in Scandinavia, Sardinia, and the Slavic populations of the Western Balkans in southeastern Europe), as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22).
Jahdey responds:
Says who? What J2 are you talking about? Do you know the Lembas of South Africa, a Black Bantu tribe? Well virtually all their men carry the J2 Cohen modal HG. The Amharas, the Oromos, the Masais, are mostly J2. In light of that fact and the admitted antiquity of Africa which gave birth to the world, where do you suppose those genes arose from?
Andrea quotes the racist Dieneke’s site:
Clades of E prevalent in Northern or Sub-Saharan Africa were not found. According to Cruciani et al. [11] most Greeks and other Balkan people belong to a specific cluster a within haplogroup E-M78 that is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan area.
Jahdey responds:
Andrea go study some real book and get off Dieneke’s blog bullclap. Dieneke is not an authority on genetics. He is just one semi-illiterate white racialist blogger misconceving scientific studies. I cited numerous references on hgE. Go read some of it. Without doubt hgE3a and E3b are all signature African gene. Do a goggle search and see how many references on this you would come up with.
Andrea:
the Haplogroup J originates in the Fertile Crescent as I broke it down for you above, not Africa. From there J is broken into two branches, J1 and J2.
Jahdey responds:
If you used your faculties more discerningly, you would have realized that Black Africans also carry the hg J2 as the Lembas, the Oromos, and a host of other East African Black men. But J2 is not found in Northern Europeans. No sir. it is found in Africa, Arabia, Mediterrenean, India and Greece, demonstrating a common kinship. Suddenly, resorting back to outmoded uses of caucasiod, caucasian, caucaucau, etc, does not effectively turn a Black Ethiopian or South African into a Northern European. What you are failing to accept is that there are more Black”caucasiods” as the term is used, than their will ever be white caucasiods. It is not a scientific term. It was an imprecise term hitherto used to define physical attributes not genetic nor blood affinity.
Jahdey continues:
Andrea must have been flabaggerstered by the data on Benin Hbs because he suddenly ignores the implication. Since it does not agree with his fundamental racialist exclusivism, he has nothing more to say to counter it. Or maybe Dieneke’s website has no mis-information left for Andrea’s cut and paste games. Answer this argument. Why do Greeks of today have Benin Hbs gene? Does this gene indicate historical contacts between Africa and Greece around Pharonic period. Yes or no? of course the answer is a resounding Yes!
Andrea also ignored the very testaments of the Greeks who spoke of their African connections, and African testaments which underline their inter-relatedness with the ancient Greek. he also ignored the subject of the main post which is an account of how the ancient Greeks view their ancestry as African.
Andrea ignored all those points because he ran out of steam. He came to Rastalive wire believing that he was messing with fellow ignoramuses. Then he got burned by knowledge, and has buried his head in shame.
This is Rastalivewire.com. InI don’t need to tell lies cause InI are royalty. We were the first monarchy and the real nobility. All others that came after are just frauds…seeking to misappropriate, or associate with what does not belong to them.
The ancient Greeks respected and worshiped Black Kushitic God/Kings and Queens of yore like Osiris whom they called Dionysius, Neith whom they called Athena, Isis whom they called Diana, Hercules, Hero, whom they called Apollo and Imhotep whom they called Asclepius. Tell me how many Nordic heros and Gods the ancient Greeks worshipped.
Myths of ancient Greece narrated by the ancient Greeks tell of their African origin. All original Africans are Black and Brown in colour. Any paler hue was a recent mutation, a late immigrant. Whether you call Black African features caucasiod or Africoid does not hide the fact that Africans are one race of people and no cheap divide and rule tactis can defeat scientific and cultural realities.
People like Andrea must learn to humble themselves and not resort to spamming, cut and paste or trolling when they are overwhelmed by a higher source of knowledge. All you need to do is humble thyself…and perhaps you will learn the root of your origin.
Jahdey
June 20th, 2007 at 8:08 pm. Permalink.
“Jahdey responds: HgA Y chromosome is African. It was also observed in some Greek samples indicating the presence of a population which such profile lived in greece in ancient times. HgA indicates African men. End of argument.”
I suggest you learn how to understand studying Haplogroups because you sure are lacking knowledge in it.
Let me explain it to you again: in that study that you quoted from Di Giacomo et al., [9] only ONE aka A SINGE haplogroup A chromosome was found (in Lesvos) which is that usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations. What that means is that Greek men are “African” is less then -.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%. You brought up Di Giacomo’s study and now you are backing away when he contradicts you? How typical.
“Jahdey Responds: Well Andrea, all your rambling has shown you is that there are Black Africans with hgR1b1* a haplogroup which is related (subclade) to the so-called hgR. There is clear undeniable genetic kinship between all the R group. Do you follow my teachings? Then there is underived hgR* the probable ancestor of all the R haplogroup. Note the asterix on the underived R*. I cited sources for your enlightenment on the nature and origin of R*. But do some goggle it yourself, and you will find that R* is most probably African in origin according to the latest studies.”
Well Jahdey, the best source on genetics is Semino et al, but I seriously doubt you would know that given your lack of understanding of the subject matter. How interesting that you only focus in on the ONE isolated clade (or clades) of Y chromosomes that appear to belong to Haplogroup R1b1* (P25) found at high frequency among the native populations of northern Cameroon in west-central Africa, but that only shows that Haplogroup R is not an African originator but a Eurasian one from the Black Sea and the Caspian Seas, let me know if you need a map as to WHERE those are located, there fore your claim that Haplogroup R found in Greeks is through “black Africans” is false, given the HgR1 Lineage originator that is found in most Europeans is thought through Eurasia not Africa.
“Jahdey Responds:
But DE occurs in its highest frequency in Nigeria. If you know elsewhere DE is more prevalent do mention it.”
Wrong. Haplogroup DE* has been found at a very low frequency among the males of modern populations of Nigeria. Haplogroup DE-YAP (the YAP+ allele) was present at high frequency in Eastern Ukrainians and only in the Japanese and was rare in other parts of east Asia (Table 2, Fig. 2). This result is consistent with previous findings of YAP+ chromosomes only in populations from Japan and Tibet in east Asia (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Kim et al. 2000; Tajima at al. 2002). However, haplogroup DE-YAP is also found at low frequencies in all the other northeast Asian populations sampled here (2.4% overall, excluding the Japanese; 9.6%, including the Japanese), but only in two of the southern populations (0.8% overall), suggesting that the Korean YAP+ chromosomes are unlikely to have been derived from a southeast Asian source. The prevalence of the YAP+ allele in central Asian populations suggests a genetic contribution to the east Asian populations from the northwest, probably from central Asia (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Jin and Su 2000; Karafet et al. 2001).
“Jahdey responds:
Says who? What J2 are you talking about? Do you know the Lembas of South Africa, a Black Bantu tribe? Well virtually all their men carry the J2 Cohen modal HG. The Amharas, the Oromos, the Masais, are mostly J2. In light of that fact and the admitted antiquity of Africa which gave birth to the world, where do you suppose those genes arose from?”
There is plenty scientific evidence that contradicts you.Haplogroup J2 is found frequently in Europe and in the Caucasus regions, it is not an African originated marker and its presents in Africa is through non-African peoples not the other way around. Scientists such as Semino et al. 2004, Patterns of mtDNA Diversity in Europe, Lucia Simoni, 2000 , Al-Zahery et a, Cinnioglu et al, Paracchini et al, Human Mitochondrial Haplogroup J in Europe and Near East, Piia Serk, 2004 to name just a few anthropologists and genetics, conducted studies on the the H J marker state the following: Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) (previously known as HG9 or Eu9/Eu10) is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. It is defined by the 12f2.1 genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker. Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Anatolian-Caucasus region What this means is that Genetic studies reveal that the Haplogroup J originates in the Fertile Crescent as it is broken down for you above, not Africa. From there J is broken into two branches, J1 and J2. These two branches expanded out from the Fertile Crescent about 7000-9000 years ago. J2 expanded towards Europe as a result all European J’s belong to J2 with presence found in subgroups of India, Pakistan and Nepal. J1 expanded out from the Fertile Crescent towards the Middle East, Arabia, East and North Africa. The highest frequencies of J1 (J-M267) are seen in the Middle East, north Africa, and Ethiopia. As it is revealed in the study above by Semino et al only 2% of Greeks carry Haplogroup J1 (J-M267) and that is of ME origins, hardly the “high frequency of Black African origins” falsely stated by you. Sources for this are many scientific studies conducted by Semino, Al-Zahery et a, Cinnioglu et al, Paracchini et al, Piia Serk.
“Jahdey responds:
Andrea go study some real book and get off Dieneke’s blog bullclap. Dieneke is not an authority on genetics. He is just one semi-illiterate white racialist blogger misconceving scientific studies. I cited numerous references on hgE. Go read some of it. Without doubt hgE3a and E3b are all signature African gene. Do a goggle search and see how many references on this you would come up with.”
Jahdey unfortunately for you it is not Dieneke but Semino et al and Cruciani et al. (2004) Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa. Am J Hum Genet (to appear) who makes the statement and provides the break down of that chart. Both of whom you used by decided to ommitte their findings that contradict your views. How very telling. Wanna see the chart that Di Giacomo et al. provideds which prove what I am saying is correct? You know Di Giacomo et al is another same source that you provided as “proof” early that Greeks are “black Africans”. Unfortunately for you Di Giacomo et al contradicts you. Here you go the result from Di Giacomo et al. study once more and I will break it down for you again
P*(xR1a)=12.8%; R1a=9.8; DE=20.2%; G2=6.6%; I-M170=14.8%; J2(DYS413= 18)=20.2%; J2*(xDYS413= 18)=4.9%; J*(xJ2)=2.7%; Y*(xA,DE,G2,I,J,P)=7.7% and last;y here is what Di Giacomo gave as the % of Greeks who had the African Hgmarker A=0.3%. As I stated above that is less then -.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%.
Oh I’m sorry are we know to believe that Di Giacomo et al, Semino et al and Cruciani et al are all “racists” too because they contradict with science your theories?
“Jahdey responds:
If you used your faculties more discerningly, you would have realized that Black Africans also carry the hg J2 as the Lembas, the Oromos, and a host of other East African Black men. But J2 is not found in Northern Europeans. No sir. it is found in Africa, Arabia, Mediterrenean, India and Greece, demonstrating a common kinship. Suddenly, resorting back to outmoded uses of caucasiod, caucasian, caucaucau, etc, does not effectively turn a Black Ethiopian or South African into a Northern European. What you are failing to accept is that there are more Black”caucasiods” as the term is used, than their will ever be white caucasiods. It is not a scientific term. It was an imprecise term hitherto used to define physical attributes not genetic nor blood affinity.”
If your faculties were more in cohesive you would have realized that hgJ1 shows that it was brought INTO Africa through the Anatolian-Caucasus region not the other way around. Haplogroup J2 is found frequently in Europe and in the Caucasus regions, it is not an African originated marker and scientists such as Semino et al. 2004, Patterns of mtDNA Diversity in Europe, Lucia Simoni, 2000 , Al-Zahery et a, Cinnioglu et al, Paracchini et al, Human Mitochondrial Haplogroup J in Europe and Near East, Piia Serk, 2004 to name just a few anthropologists and genetics, conducted studies on the the H J marker contradict your theory regarding hgJ2. Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) (previously known as HG9 or Eu9/Eu10) is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. It is defined by the 12f2.1 genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker. Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Anatolian-Caucasus region (Semino et al. 2004). It is most closely related to Haplogroup I,(most commonly in Scandinavia, Sardinia, and the Slavic populations of the Western Balkans in southeastern Europe), as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22). Haplogroup J (mtDNA) originated around 45,000 years before present when a mutation took place in the J line which can be identified as J1a1 (27,000 yrs ago), J2a (19,000 yrs ago), J2b2 (16,000 years ago), J2b3 (5,800 yrs ago), etc. Haplogroup J (along with ‘T’) is associated with the spread of farming and herding in Europe during the Neolithic Era (8,000-10,000 yrs ago). Average frequency of J Haplogroup as a whole is highest in the Near East (12%), followed by Europe (11%), Caucasus (8%) and North Africa (6%). I have yet to find a credible genecist to claim that Black Africans also carry the Haplogroup J2.
Jahdey, I believe you need to learn the roots of your own origins and try to invent pseudo history based upon 18th and 19th century Eurocentrics. There is absolutely no evidence not in their art nor in their stories not in their depictions of themselves that shows ancient Greeks being “Black Africans” and trust me they did depict ‘black africans’ in their art but they never claimed them “Greek”, they were “foreigners” to them. They called Nubians and all sub-shara black africans “Aithiopia” Burnt-Faced Ones. Now if ancient Greeks were really “black Africans” in origins they would have applied this term for themselves as well but they don’t. All genetic test conducted between modern Greeks and those of ancient Greek skeleton remains from ancient burial grounds contradict your claims that ancient Greeks were “black africans”. They were not, they were caucasians, their art depictions them as such and so does the thousands upon thousands of artifacts and literature. In fact it is Di Giacomo et al. (2003) , the same source YOU used to show some supposed origins of “African Greeks” but instead he contradict your views, Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Mol Phyl Evol 28:387-395 and Semino et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. Am J Hum Genet are the ones who conducted more refined versions of the Y chromosome phylogeny that indicate hardly any influences less then ~2% from the Black Africa during ancient times. Ancient Greeks never spoke of any “African origins”, you are really being misguided if you believe that. Ancient Greeks were one of the most Eurocentric and Hellenicetric civilizations to exist, they didn’t ‘admire’ black African culture in the sense some are claiming, heck if it wasn’t Hellenic they considered it to be barbaric and if you are not aware of that little fact then you are not familiar with ancient Greek civilization. Certainly the influence of Egyptian statuary on Archaic Greek kouroi is widely accepted, among Classicists as well as Egyptologists but the differences in their function and execution are so blantly obvious that it is ignorant to disregard it importance. In arguing for an Egyptian colonization of Greece people who hold your views disregard the extensive Egyptian textual tradition as well as the arguments of the scholars who have been investigating these questions for decades that such colonization has not been recorded. If such a coloniziation had taken place then ancient Egyptians such as Thutmose III would have left records and mentioned it in his annals that they conquered southern Europe and set up colonies there but not exist. Also the origin that Greeks and Romans swiped many of their culture and rituals from the Egyptians or black Africans comes mainly from an eighteenth century work of fiction called Sethos, a History or Biography, based on Unpublished Memoirs of Ancient Egyptby the Abbe Jean Terrason. Since Egyptian hieroglyphics couldn’t be read until Jean François Champollion deciphered the Rosetta Stone nearly a century after Terrason wrote his book, Terrason created a pseudo Egyptian religion based on rituals which he knew well: Greek and Roman rituals. So, the claim made by many who do not know better that Greek and Roman culture, ideology and relition were based on Egyptian or “African” rites is based on a book about a fictional Egyptian religion that was based on Greek and Roman rites. Its also funny that on the one hand you criticize Dieneke’s website but on the other you turn around and use the same sources he does, even though you omitted material because they contradict your theories, such as all those the nice tables of haplogroup frequencies reported in Di Giacomo et al, Semino et al and Cruciani et al books. I find it interesting that you actually believe you can contradict scientific evidence that was provided with pseudo theories and ideology.
June 20th, 2007 at 10:28 pm. Permalink.
Andrea
My thesis was that;
1. Africans and ancient Greeks were inter-related by Blood. We showed you genetic evidence.
You admitted the presence of clear inter-connectedness on a genetic level by conceeding that there exist haplogroups (i.e. Blood relationship) shared in common between Greeks and Africans such as: Haplogroup A, Haplogroup J, and Haplogroup E3A and E3B. Your only issue was that hgA was found in small percentages, that E3 which (Underhill states as originating in Africa) did not gave birth to all its other clades like those found in Greece (which is highly illogical).
The fact that you have been forced to admit all these facts of genetics without recognizing what you just did shows you up as a person with some literacy issues.
Then the Benin Hbs genetic link between Greece and Africa which you have pointedly refused to address and disprove totally destroys your foolish rantings.
Let me remind you that nordic Euros like yourself rarely carry the sickle cell gene, but southern Europeans like Italians, Greeks, Anatolians, Spaniards and Portugese all carry Benin Hbs genes which originated in Africa and reached southern Europe in historical times.
Di Giacomo supports all I have just shown you. HG A is very rare gene by any standard. The last information I got stated that hgA has only been sequenced in 27 in the entire Africa which consists of nearly 800 million people. On this basis it was described as African. It is thus interesting to note that the same gene was also sequenced most recently in Greeks and English people. Its presence only demonstrates how intertwined and ancient the relationship between ancient Greece and Africa was.
See http://www.africaresource.com/.....of-europe/
Your analysis of hg J leaves me embarrased for you. If you observe carefully the name Eu9/10, you would see that the earlier researchers had thought that hg J was an exclusively European gene until more recent research showed that there existed the highest preponderance of hg J (the so called EU9/10) around the coastal ring of the Eriterian Sea (Red Sea) . In 2004 Seminole admitted that this gene must have come from the middle east.
The “middle east” he talks about in that 2004 paper includes Ethiopia, Yemen, Eriteria, Sudan, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Somalia, etc. This so-called middle east as one can see then is more or less a pseudonym for Africa.
According to Spencer a leading genetist in his book the Journey of Man at page 106 (I know you will respect Spencer Well’s authority):
“…the Middle East has always been an extension of north-eastern Africa, to both the grazing animals and the humans that hunted them. This has been the case for millions of years…”
So when next you hear middle east…think Africa!
I could cite you 100 more authorities that support that proposition.
Yemen is just across the Red Sea from Ethiopia. The Red Sea has never been a barrier between the two coasts since the coastal African people have long been sea faring (like the Phoenicians).
The Greek and Roman writers (Herodotus, Strabo, Tacitus) acknowledge that there was an Ethiopia to the east (so called Middle East) and Ethiopia to the West. The Ethiopians (Black Skinned Africans) lived on both sides of the coast.
The Yemenites, the Sabeans, the Ethiopian Amhara and Oromos are all one family. They are all black people, geographically, genetically and culturally continguous. See Encyclopedia Britannica. See also the Original Black African Arabs of Arabia series 1 - 4 for your elucidation. http://www.africaresource.com/.....-ofo-annu/
Dieneke is not my intellectual match. He is fraud, just like yourself.
Greeks have never considered themselves kins with nordic Europeans. But ancient Greeks spoke glowingly about Egypt. Yes, they lived in ancient Egypt too, and were more familiar with them than you will ever be. They told us Egyptians were Blacks like the Ethiopians. They told us that Greeks loved everything African that they even bowed to African gods. They went to school in Egypt and learned Maths, geometry, medicine and government.
Solon the founder of Athens, was schooled by Egyptians. Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Alexander the Macedon, all went to the African fount of knowledge and they wrote about it.
Ironically, those ancient men, would have considered Andrea and his Euroland-loving cohorts as wild, cannibal, barbarians, and even worse freaks. They may have been prejuidiced, but at least we see who was holding the bottom of the totem pole and who was sitting at the top in those days.
Again chanting caucaucau like some magical mantra don’t cut any ice with me. There are more Black caucasiods in Africa, Arabia and India as the word is defined than there are nordic Europeans in Europe. And those southerners despite their clear kinship did not and still do not consider the nordic European as their kin. Yet, they all acknowledge a clear linkage to Africa.
Today people like Andrea are desperately trying to pass off lies as history, so that they can ingritiate their disreputable ancestors with my ancestors from Egypt, Ethiopian and Yemen.
What a pathetic show. What desperation. What a nerve.
Ancient Greeks considered themselves kins with Africans…see Herodotus on History. See the subject article of this post. They never considered themselves kins with nordic Europeans. They said so. And population genetics proves this correct daily.
Jahdey
June 21st, 2007 at 8:28 am. Permalink.
Very wordy…,but still presumptuous,of course a majority of the said “greeks’ would find it in their favour to consider themselves non African origin if, to prove their genius in the”new” order of things”to come”.
June 21st, 2007 at 8:46 pm. Permalink.
Does all the Neo Egypto-fascination translate to “chickens coming home to roost”?
June 21st, 2007 at 9:11 pm. Permalink.
The only wrong presumptions being made is by people who believe in the fallacies of Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics teachings that ancient/modern Greeks were/are “African Black” or “Nordic Fair”, both ridiculously wrong theories. Trying to make ancient Greeks into either “African Blacks/”Nordic” when all ancient and modern evidence proves others just shows an INaccurate thinking mentality by people from those groups. A thinking mentali