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	<title>Comments on: African Moors: The Appearance of the Original Berbers According to European Perceptions  &#8211; By &#8211; Dana Marniche</title>
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	<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/</link>
	<description>Rastafarian Views on Life, Politics and Social Issues</description>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/comment-page-2/#comment-33995</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2011 20:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/?p=310#comment-33995</guid>
		<description>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2UfdSkHV0

Someone proud of their Germanic heritage put the above videos up about the Vandals i.e. modern inhabitants of Kabyles. 

Ancient History Sourcebook:
Procopius of Caesarea:
Gaiseric &amp; The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE

&quot;Now the Vandals, dwelling about the Maeotic Lake [the Sea of Azov], since they were pressed by hunger, moved to the country of the Germans, who are now called Franks, and the river Rhine, associating with themselves the Alans, a Gothic people  …  Thus the Libyans were visited with every form of misfortune.

The Vandals and the Alans he arranged in companies, appointing over them no less than eighty captains, whom he called &quot;chiliarchs&quot; [i.e., &quot;leaders of a thousand&quot;], making it appear that his host of fighting men in active service amounted to eighty thousand. And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an EXCEEDINGLY NUMEROUS PEOPLE. But the names of the Alans and all the other barbarians, except the Mauretanii, were united in the name of Vandals.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2UfdSkHV0" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2UfdSkHV0</a></p>
<p>Someone proud of their Germanic heritage put the above videos up about the Vandals i.e. modern inhabitants of Kabyles. </p>
<p>Ancient History Sourcebook:<br />
Procopius of Caesarea:<br />
Gaiseric &amp; The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 &#8211; 477 CE</p>
<p>&#8220;Now the Vandals, dwelling about the Maeotic Lake [the Sea of Azov], since they were pressed by hunger, moved to the country of the Germans, who are now called Franks, and the river Rhine, associating with themselves the Alans, a Gothic people  …  Thus the Libyans were visited with every form of misfortune.</p>
<p>The Vandals and the Alans he arranged in companies, appointing over them no less than eighty captains, whom he called &#8220;chiliarchs&#8221; [i.e., "leaders of a thousand"], making it appear that his host of fighting men in active service amounted to eighty thousand. And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an EXCEEDINGLY NUMEROUS PEOPLE. But the names of the Alans and all the other barbarians, except the Mauretanii, were united in the name of Vandals.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/comment-page-2/#comment-33936</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/?p=310#comment-33936</guid>
		<description>You are correct in that anybody who today speaks Berber is called &quot;a Berber&quot; or Moors.  That doesn&#039;t mean they have anything to do with the people anciently called Berbers by Greeks, Romans and Byzantines. 

Berbers are not a homogeoneous people or culture.

&quot;There is little doubt that the whole of North Africa spoke Berber languages at one time while in the Middle Ages they occupied much of Spain and Sicily as well. But just as the dialects are mutually incomprehensible so the people themselves are extremely heterogeneous: the existence of an ethnically defined unified people is no more demonstrable for the past than it is today.  Indeed, there are a bewildering number of cultures, economies and physical characteristics. &quot;

The Berbers, by Brett and Fentress



Algeria: A Country Study, which reads: “The Berbers are a composite people, presenting a broad range of physical types and the bond among various Berber groups is almost entirely a linguistic one.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are correct in that anybody who today speaks Berber is called &#8220;a Berber&#8221; or Moors.  That doesn&#8217;t mean they have anything to do with the people anciently called Berbers by Greeks, Romans and Byzantines. </p>
<p>Berbers are not a homogeoneous people or culture.</p>
<p>&#8220;There is little doubt that the whole of North Africa spoke Berber languages at one time while in the Middle Ages they occupied much of Spain and Sicily as well. But just as the dialects are mutually incomprehensible so the people themselves are extremely heterogeneous: the existence of an ethnically defined unified people is no more demonstrable for the past than it is today.  Indeed, there are a bewildering number of cultures, economies and physical characteristics. &#8221;</p>
<p>The Berbers, by Brett and Fentress</p>
<p>Algeria: A Country Study, which reads: “The Berbers are a composite people, presenting a broad range of physical types and the bond among various Berber groups is almost entirely a linguistic one.”</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/comment-page-2/#comment-33935</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/?p=310#comment-33935</guid>
		<description>As for slaves coming from Europe.  Ive&#039; learned within the past few years that Over the last 15 years their have been a number of scholarly books on the subject  .  A number of reviews have been done on these books stating the figures. Some examples are below - 


White Slaves, African Masters
An Anthology of American Barbary Captivity Narratives

Edited and with an introduction by Paul Baepler

The University of Chicago Press 1999 

This book illuminates a subject once well-known in the history of the West but which is now somewhat neglected: the enslavement, over several centuries, of tens of thousands of white Christian Europeans and (later) Americans in Muslim North Africa -- or the so-called “Barbary” states of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli. Over the course of 10 centuries, tens of thousands of these unfortunates became the possessions of Muslims in North Africa courtesy of the feared Barbary pirates. These pirates cruised the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean in search of European and, later, American ships to pillage and plunder. 


As Baepler notes in his introduction, Christian slaves of European ancestry were hardly an uncommon phenomenon in the Barbary States. The Barbary pirates were excellent seafarers and, from the Coasts of North Africa, sailed as far north as Iceland (where they went ashore and captured 800 slaves during one incident) and as far West as Newfoundland, Canada, where they pillaged more than 40 vessels at one time. By 1620, reports Baepler, there were more than 20,000 white Christian slaves in Algiers alone, and by the 1630s that number tolled more than 30,000 men and 2,000 women. The most famous of all white Christian Europeans to serve as a slave in the Barbary States was probably Miguel de Cervantes, the great Spanish author of the “Don Quixote” epic, who was taken as a slave in the late 1500s. &quot;

 In a 1902 book entitled, The Moors: A Comprehensive Description

&quot;Another way in which the Europeans have been frequently outwitted is by the importation of Circassian and other slaves and eunuchs from Turkey via braltar or Algiers in foreign vessels, usually entered as members of the family of their master… This is often the case with white concubines, who are in great demand, even if natives. Consequently white girls are frequently kidnapped, and in time of war openly sold...&quot;

We know that unlike the black women slaves in North Africa, the European or white slave women were brought to Africa especially for among other things, propogation purposes - especially Circassians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for slaves coming from Europe.  Ive&#8217; learned within the past few years that Over the last 15 years their have been a number of scholarly books on the subject  .  A number of reviews have been done on these books stating the figures. Some examples are below &#8211; </p>
<p>White Slaves, African Masters<br />
An Anthology of American Barbary Captivity Narratives</p>
<p>Edited and with an introduction by Paul Baepler</p>
<p>The University of Chicago Press 1999 </p>
<p>This book illuminates a subject once well-known in the history of the West but which is now somewhat neglected: the enslavement, over several centuries, of tens of thousands of white Christian Europeans and (later) Americans in Muslim North Africa &#8212; or the so-called “Barbary” states of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli. Over the course of 10 centuries, tens of thousands of these unfortunates became the possessions of Muslims in North Africa courtesy of the feared Barbary pirates. These pirates cruised the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean in search of European and, later, American ships to pillage and plunder. </p>
<p>As Baepler notes in his introduction, Christian slaves of European ancestry were hardly an uncommon phenomenon in the Barbary States. The Barbary pirates were excellent seafarers and, from the Coasts of North Africa, sailed as far north as Iceland (where they went ashore and captured 800 slaves during one incident) and as far West as Newfoundland, Canada, where they pillaged more than 40 vessels at one time. By 1620, reports Baepler, there were more than 20,000 white Christian slaves in Algiers alone, and by the 1630s that number tolled more than 30,000 men and 2,000 women. The most famous of all white Christian Europeans to serve as a slave in the Barbary States was probably Miguel de Cervantes, the great Spanish author of the “Don Quixote” epic, who was taken as a slave in the late 1500s. &#8221;</p>
<p> In a 1902 book entitled, The Moors: A Comprehensive Description</p>
<p>&#8220;Another way in which the Europeans have been frequently outwitted is by the importation of Circassian and other slaves and eunuchs from Turkey via braltar or Algiers in foreign vessels, usually entered as members of the family of their master… This is often the case with white concubines, who are in great demand, even if natives. Consequently white girls are frequently kidnapped, and in time of war openly sold&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>We know that unlike the black women slaves in North Africa, the European or white slave women were brought to Africa especially for among other things, propogation purposes &#8211; especially Circassians.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/comment-page-2/#comment-33934</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 20:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/?p=310#comment-33934</guid>
		<description>Meant to say &quot;the worse part&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meant to say &#8220;the worse part&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/comment-page-2/#comment-33933</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 20:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/?p=310#comment-33933</guid>
		<description>Yes the word part is even the brown Moroccans don&#039;t want anything to do with black Africa, something like many northern Egyptians. They are racist because of the influence of the late Ottoman Empire - from the 1700s forward -  a time in which most of the slaves brought into Morocco and North Africa were from so- called black Africa (unlike the previous 1,000 years).   Of course European colonialism across Northern Africa and Arabia added to this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes the word part is even the brown Moroccans don&#8217;t want anything to do with black Africa, something like many northern Egyptians. They are racist because of the influence of the late Ottoman Empire &#8211; from the 1700s forward &#8211;  a time in which most of the slaves brought into Morocco and North Africa were from so- called black Africa (unlike the previous 1,000 years).   Of course European colonialism across Northern Africa and Arabia added to this.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/comment-page-2/#comment-33932</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 20:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/?p=310#comment-33932</guid>
		<description>in fact there are still dark -skinned kabyles.  Furthermore, the area that has been considered Kabylia has also seen change in the last 200 years.  Kabylia and the Aures were connected peoples the area AS ARCHEOLOGY SHOWS has been settled by blond Vandals, iron age Greeks, Berbers and Romans. And also many European slaves have come to the region as Berber came down from the mountains to acquire concubines.  There is nothing contradictory about colonial observations.  They basically said the majority of the Berber clans of Kabylia were dark or near black and that some were not. They also said these people dressed differently and had different or distinct cultures. 

You are right Kabylians today are a result of mixture of peoples of diverse origin since the iron age. The Berbers who occupied Kabylia were called Kitama and were the  &quot;Moors&quot; spoken of by Procopius who had &quot;black skins&quot; unlike the Vandals.  Their  descendants - the Imakitan are still near black in color. 

Thus, iIf you are trying to to say early Berbers were blond and blue eyed or that even most whites in kabylia were blond and blue-eyed you need to start studying the Vandal, Greek and Roman  heritage of Kabylia.  maybe that will resolve some heritage issues for you. Stop leaving that out which is part of your  &quot;MANIPULATING HISTORY&quot; and we won&#039;t be having this discussion!.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in fact there are still dark -skinned kabyles.  Furthermore, the area that has been considered Kabylia has also seen change in the last 200 years.  Kabylia and the Aures were connected peoples the area AS ARCHEOLOGY SHOWS has been settled by blond Vandals, iron age Greeks, Berbers and Romans. And also many European slaves have come to the region as Berber came down from the mountains to acquire concubines.  There is nothing contradictory about colonial observations.  They basically said the majority of the Berber clans of Kabylia were dark or near black and that some were not. They also said these people dressed differently and had different or distinct cultures. </p>
<p>You are right Kabylians today are a result of mixture of peoples of diverse origin since the iron age. The Berbers who occupied Kabylia were called Kitama and were the  &#8220;Moors&#8221; spoken of by Procopius who had &#8220;black skins&#8221; unlike the Vandals.  Their  descendants &#8211; the Imakitan are still near black in color. </p>
<p>Thus, iIf you are trying to to say early Berbers were blond and blue eyed or that even most whites in kabylia were blond and blue-eyed you need to start studying the Vandal, Greek and Roman  heritage of Kabylia.  maybe that will resolve some heritage issues for you. Stop leaving that out which is part of your  &#8220;MANIPULATING HISTORY&#8221; and we won&#8217;t be having this discussion!.</p>
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		<title>By: Charline</title>
		<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/comment-page-2/#comment-29587</link>
		<dc:creator>Charline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/?p=310#comment-29587</guid>
		<description>Although the majority of Moroccans ARE racist against balck people (I&#039;ve been I experienced this first hand - very racist!) they themselves do not realise their ancestry - this is crazy, I&#039;ve spoken to a dark brown moroccan and asked him his race (a man in his 30&#039;s) his reply was &#039;white&#039;.  They see themeslves as white or arabian nothing more.  There are very black moor-occans!  The shades vary, so why are they so racist of BLACK people?  If they are arab, why are they in AFRICA??!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although the majority of Moroccans ARE racist against balck people (I&#8217;ve been I experienced this first hand &#8211; very racist!) they themselves do not realise their ancestry &#8211; this is crazy, I&#8217;ve spoken to a dark brown moroccan and asked him his race (a man in his 30&#8242;s) his reply was &#8216;white&#8217;.  They see themeslves as white or arabian nothing more.  There are very black moor-occans!  The shades vary, so why are they so racist of BLACK people?  If they are arab, why are they in AFRICA??!!!</p>
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		<title>By: yugerten masinas</title>
		<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/comment-page-2/#comment-27432</link>
		<dc:creator>yugerten masinas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 06:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/?p=310#comment-27432</guid>
		<description>I think there is many studies and books about berbers,and each one is contradicting the other,especialy when talking about the kabyles.all that because of the colonial  ideology (the arabs ,and the europeans),to say that the early kabyles  were brown skin or dark skin ,then the modern kabyles are fair skin is stupide.the kabyles are whites folks with a very mixt origins,since the neolhitic . I can speak as a Kabyle myself, for me and my entire family (all being berber-kabyles for generations),I myself am very light skinned, and blond, many of my family .cousins,friends are as  well, and blue eyed, which are almost non-existant traits among &#039;arabs&#039;. Berbers of north africa are the original inhabitants of the land. Arabs came later during the arab conquest, they spread Islam and began mixing with the native population, but many of the people in the mountains and remote areas were not as affected by the mixing. There have been many foreign invasions in North Africa including the romans, ottomans, spanish, arabs, french,but kabyls were never been dark skin,they are very different from the sub and the saharian berbers!I don&#039;t think saint agustune of hypo was black or the berber-empror of rome were black also!STOP MANIPULATING HISTORY</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is many studies and books about berbers,and each one is contradicting the other,especialy when talking about the kabyles.all that because of the colonial  ideology (the arabs ,and the europeans),to say that the early kabyles  were brown skin or dark skin ,then the modern kabyles are fair skin is stupide.the kabyles are whites folks with a very mixt origins,since the neolhitic . I can speak as a Kabyle myself, for me and my entire family (all being berber-kabyles for generations),I myself am very light skinned, and blond, many of my family .cousins,friends are as  well, and blue eyed, which are almost non-existant traits among &#8216;arabs&#8217;. Berbers of north africa are the original inhabitants of the land. Arabs came later during the arab conquest, they spread Islam and began mixing with the native population, but many of the people in the mountains and remote areas were not as affected by the mixing. There have been many foreign invasions in North Africa including the romans, ottomans, spanish, arabs, french,but kabyls were never been dark skin,they are very different from the sub and the saharian berbers!I don&#8217;t think saint agustune of hypo was black or the berber-empror of rome were black also!STOP MANIPULATING HISTORY</p>
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		<title>By: Nehesy</title>
		<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/comment-page-2/#comment-26042</link>
		<dc:creator>Nehesy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/?p=310#comment-26042</guid>
		<description>Hi Dana

Sorry I didn&#039;t see your message about French and white slavery in Algeria. I&#039;ll find the source and post it here.

Regards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dana</p>
<p>Sorry I didn&#8217;t see your message about French and white slavery in Algeria. I&#8217;ll find the source and post it here.</p>
<p>Regards</p>
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		<title>By: dana marniche</title>
		<link>http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-appearance-of-the-original-berbers-according-to-european-perceptions-by-dana-marniche/comment-page-2/#comment-25912</link>
		<dc:creator>dana marniche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 22:15:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/?p=310#comment-25912</guid>
		<description>I should have said circa 1100-1500 B.C when a dam at Marib (Meriba of Exodus 17 broke).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have said circa 1100-1500 B.C when a dam at Marib (Meriba of Exodus 17 broke).</p>
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